Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Down

Author Topic: What about 36MP DSLRs?  (Read 48831 times)

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2011, 08:48:45 am »

Hi,

The sensor is essentially a device that collects photons, converts them to free electrons and stores the electrons in small capacitor. At readout the voltage over the capacitors is measured (on CMOS) or the electrons themselves be shifted out and electron charge measured (in CCD). The sensors are linear devices, little can be done about that. The signal can be amplified before Analog Digital Conversion (ADC).

It would be feasible to have nonlinear amplification, but it would make little sense as the ADC-s used span a greater range than SNR (Signal Noise Ratio).

All measured data I have seen on RAW files was linear.

Best regards
Erik

OK Eric! I'll stay with "it's feasible" and remind you of the transistors that each pixel carries before the capacitor. Can they be "tweeked"/directed so that the output that they supply to the capacitor is the desired? "Of course" is the obvious answer. What "makes little sense" as you correctly state has to do with SNR which are pixels that carry low light info, it makes great sense to use negative amplification to those pixels that are saturated or approach saturation. Of course there was no need to add the last statement, that "Raw files carry linear data", it was never the question, I'll just remind you that "linearized" will be measured as linear. Best regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Logged

Ben Rubinstein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1822
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2011, 08:56:28 am »

Guys, if you go into your profile there is a setting under 'personal message preferences' to ignore PM's from certain users. That will also automatically hide their uninformed troll posts throughout the forum. Just sayin'...
Logged

Chairman Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3352
    • flickr page
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2011, 09:00:48 am »

Taking a linearised cross tangent, and an s-curve over the reverse strile, and Mornington Crescent! I win!


Oops. Wrong forum

Eric Myrvaagnes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22813
  • http://myrvaagnes.com
    • http://myrvaagnes.com
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2011, 09:11:42 am »

Guys, if you go into your profile there is a setting under 'personal message preferences' to ignore PM's from certain users. That will also automatically hide their uninformed troll posts throughout the forum. Just sayin'...
Thanks for the tip, Ben. It works!

I never checked that preference because I assumed it only worked on PMs rather than posts.

Eric
Logged
-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2051
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2011, 09:20:30 am »

OK Eric! I'll stay with "it's feasible" and remind you of the transistors that each pixel carries before the capacitor. Can they be "tweeked"/directed so that the output that they supply to the capacitor is the desired? "Of course" is the obvious answer. What "makes little sense" as you correctly state has to do with SNR which are pixels that carry low light info, it makes great sense to use negative amplification to those pixels that are saturated or approach saturation. Of course there was no need to add the last statement, that "Raw files carry linear data", it was never the question, I'll just remind you that "linearized" will be measured as linear. Best regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
You have multiple times posted comments that many readers have interpreted as you claiming that digital raw files does not contain linear measurements of light. You may talk about perception and tweaking and s-curves and "feasibilities" all you like, the bottom line is that raw files are usually linear measurements of light according to any source but you. You have had multiple chances to clear up all of the confusion, but rather you choose to take this personal, or continue filling the forum with unsupported controversial claims. This means that the reader simply cannot take anything you say seriously. Best case it is your choice of translator that make you insightful, polite Greek into meaningless gobble-talk in English.

-h
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 09:26:03 am by hjulenissen »
Logged

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2051
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2011, 09:24:20 am »

Guys, if you go into your profile there is a setting under 'personal message preferences' to ignore PM's from certain users. That will also automatically hide their uninformed troll posts throughout the forum. Just sayin'...
Thank you for this tips.

-h
Logged

jeremypayne

  • Guest
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #86 on: December 28, 2011, 09:59:58 am »

Back to the topic ... My dream kit for landscape would be:

- D800 with 36MP
- 16-35mm VR
- 50mm AFS
- 70-200mm VRII

I have the older version of all four items and would love to upgrade the whole kit.
Logged

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #87 on: December 28, 2011, 10:27:09 am »

You have multiple times posted comments that many readers have interpreted as you claiming that digital raw files does not contain linear measurements of light. You may talk about perception and tweaking and s-curves and "feasibilities" all you like, the bottom line is that raw files are usually linear measurements of light according to any source but you. You have had multiple chances to clear up all of the confusion, but rather you choose to take this personal, or continue filling the forum with unsupported controversial claims. This means that the reader simply cannot take anything you say seriously. Best case it is your choice of translator that make you insightful, polite Greek into meaningless gobble-talk in English.

-h
Unless you do state, your name, occupation and submit your photography, you are politely asked (this is the fourth time), not to refer to me, use my name or twist any subject I 've commented about, I don't talk anonymously or share a photographic discussion with non-photographers! This is because I know that many unoccupied crooks, have made web an occupation and are creating MULTIPLE PROFILES AS THEIR CLONE just to attract possible victims. Especially for (the real) you, since I know your occupation (aren't you working on a circus?), either your name is Jeremy or Theodoros or other, I suggest you KEEP the CLONE MASK, remove the CLOWN MASK and start again with a new CLONE NAME. Its a trusted method AMONG CROOKS. For the rest that may be reading, look back to the forum, it can only be beneficial on the crap you may be fed on the web. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Logged

Chairman Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3352
    • flickr page
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2011, 10:30:49 am »

Unless you do state, your name, occupation and submit your photography, you are politely asked (this is the fourth time), not to refer to me, use my name or twist any subject I 've commented about, I don't talk anonymously or share a photographic discussion with non-photographers! This is because I know that many unoccupied crooks, have made web an occupation and are creating MULTIPLE PROFILES AS THEIR CLONE just to attract possible victims. Especially for (the real) you, since I know your occupation (aren't you working on a circus?), either your name is Jeremy or Theodoros or other, I suggest you KEEP the CLONE MASK, remove the CLOWN MASK and start again with a new CLONE NAME. Its a trusted method AMONG CROOKS. For the rest that may be reading, look back to the forum, it can only be beneficial on the crap you may be fed on the web. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Wow. Trolling, much?

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2011, 10:48:45 am »

Wow. Trolling, much?
Anything on the subject?
Logged

jeremypayne

  • Guest
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2011, 11:03:46 am »

Unless you do state, your name, occupation and submit your photography, you are politely asked (this is the fourth time), not to refer to me, use my name or twist any subject I 've commented about, I don't talk anonymously or share a photographic discussion with non-photographers! This is because I know that many unoccupied crooks, have made web an occupation and are creating MULTIPLE PROFILES AS THEIR CLONE just to attract possible victims. Especially for (the real) you, since I know your occupation (aren't you working on a circus?), either your name is Jeremy or Theodoros or other, I suggest you KEEP the CLONE MASK, remove the CLOWN MASK and start again with a new CLONE NAME. Its a trusted method AMONG CROOKS. For the rest that may be reading, look back to the forum, it can only be beneficial on the crap you may be fed on the web. Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

You are politely asked to refrain from making ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims.

If you do, people will challenge you.  If you don't rise to the challenge and present evidence and logical arguments, people will have no choice but to consider YOU the clown.
Logged

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2011, 11:15:08 am »

You are politely asked to refrain from making ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims.

If you do, people will challenge you.  If you don't rise to the challenge and present evidence and logical arguments, people will have no choice but to consider YOU the clown.

Now I know his real name... and his photography! Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Logged

deejjjaaaa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1170
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2011, 11:52:02 am »

The RAW file opened by the RAW converter contains linear per sensel data points from the imager and A/D conversion.

however raw file is created by camera's firmware and sometimes the data there might not be what you think

http://blog.lexa.ru/2011/11/10/o_lineinosti_raw_nikon_d5x00.html

http://blog.lexa.ru/2011/10/28/o_lineinosti_raw_i_ettr.html

translate.google.com is your friend.
Logged

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2011, 11:59:48 am »

however raw file is created by camera's firmware and sometimes the data there might not be what you think

http://blog.lexa.ru/2011/11/10/o_lineinosti_raw_nikon_d5x00.html

http://blog.lexa.ru/2011/10/28/o_lineinosti_raw_i_ettr.html

translate.google.com is your friend.
+1. Thanks, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
P.S. "The rest of the world" may not be that ...much!
Logged

AndreasE

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2011, 12:00:51 pm »

Andy do you question that some pixels of a sensor can be directed to reject a number of photons in a way that saturatated input to the A/D converter can be prevented or delayed? Do you question that some other pixels can be directed to amplify (with noise of course) the light that they receive?
 If you don't question that the above can be easily done, wouldn't the application of both the above result in raws being a linearized result of an S-slope? Please be careful, I am not asking you about your opinion if it happens (we'll come to this later) nor the above has anything to do with linear or not A/D convertors. Its a simple question if it can be done easily. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Theodore,
can you please answer my questions - They are very simple.
With regards to yours: The answer for the real & mass market = No (as of today).
I'm not interested what is possible in theory, in a laboratory or in a niche market - it is not what this discussion is about.

Thanks,
Andy
Logged

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2011, 12:40:59 pm »

Theodore,
can you please answer my questions - They are very simple.
With regards to yours: The answer for the real & mass market = No (as of today).
I'm not interested what is possible in theory, in a laboratory or in a niche market - it is not what this discussion is about.

Thanks,
Andy

With all respect Andreas, I will insist that you answer mine first (I mean a straight answer not some ....politics or in what you are interested on), I am not talking for any possible market, It's about what happens TODAY, it's only that the manufacturers (and technology) needs perfection.... and we are not that close to it because of the megapixel war, ....that some are mindlessly trying to support! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
P.S. The discussion was about if highlight DR exists or not (which is a crucial factor in whether we need 36mpx cameras or not).
Logged

jeremypayne

  • Guest
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2011, 01:49:04 pm »

With all respect Andreas, I will insist that you answer mine first (I mean a straight answer not some ....politics or in what you are interested on), I am not talking for any possible market, It's about what happens TODAY, it's only that the manufacturers (and technology) needs perfection.... and we are not that close to it because of the megapixel war, ....that some are mindlessly trying to support! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
P.S. The discussion was about if highlight DR exists or not (which is a crucial factor in whether we need 36mpx cameras or not).

He answered you.

The utility of 36MP has nothing to do with your confused notions of "highlight DR".

I have created plenty of 30-60MP files by stitching my D700 and can see noticeable differences between prints from those files and prints from single 12MP shots.  36MP will be very useful.
Logged

PierreVandevenne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 512
    • http://www.datarescue.com/life
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2011, 02:09:51 pm »

While I know photometria can be both a genuine and an accidental pain, I wouldn't dismiss categorically all that he is saying. The "pure raw" data is usually obtained from well characterized CCDs.  It's very hard to obtain "pure raw data" from a CMOS sensor, especially an active one like the current Sony. The content of Nikon RAW dslr files has always been post-processed to some extent, as all amateur astronomers using DSLRs for astrophotography know (http://astrosurf.com/buil/nikon_test/test.htm). In addition to that, the current Sony sensors perform per pixel calibration and, while it is not possible to dynamically change the fundamental collection of photons at a given sensels, it is quite possible to pre-charge the sensel depletion zone and change the linearity of its response (that's one example, not a claim that they do it, in its sensor briefs Sony mixes genuinely interesting information with pure marketing). Whether it is only done at the individual sensel level to handle non uniformity or it is also done at the global level to achieve some kind of in-sensor HDR equivalent is a tough question, deserving a deeper investigation than casual dismissal. Whether all of this matters a lot for most photographic applications is another question, maybe not as tough if one sees the camera as a whole as a black box.
Logged

fotometria gr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 568
    • www.fotometria.gr
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2011, 02:24:52 pm »

While I know photometria can be both a genuine and an accidental pain, I wouldn't dismiss categorically all that he is saying. The "pure raw" data is usually obtained from well characterized CCDs.  It's very hard to obtain "pure raw data" from a CMOS sensor, especially an active one like the current Sony. The content of Nikon RAW dslr files has always been post-processed to some extent, as all amateur astronomers using DSLRs for astrophotography know (http://astrosurf.com/buil/nikon_test/test.htm). In addition to that, the current Sony sensors perform per pixel calibration and, while it is not possible to dynamically change the fundamental collection of photons at a given sensels, it is quite possible to pre-charge the sensel depletion zone and change the linearity of its response (that's one example, not a claim that they do it, in its sensor briefs Sony mixes genuinely interesting information with pure marketing). Whether it is only done at the individual sensel level to handle non uniformity or it is also done at the global level to achieve some kind of in-sensor HDR equivalent is a tough question, deserving a deeper investigation than casual dismissal. Whether all of this matters a lot for most photographic applications is another question, maybe not as tough if one sees the camera as a whole as a black box.

The "rest of the world" is even smaller, in a while it will be a minority. By the way, the name is "fotometria" not "photometria". Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Logged

uaiomex

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1211
    • http://www.eduardocervantes.com
Re: What about 36MP DSLRs?
« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2011, 03:30:43 pm »

But you are stitching FF sensor captures. We want to find out how useful it will be to cram 36mp inside one single FF sensor.
I haven't read all posts. I apologize beforehand if I'm missing something here.  :D
Eduardo



I have created plenty of 30-60MP files by stitching my D700 and can see noticeable differences between prints from those files and prints from single 12MP shots.  36MP will be very useful.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8   Go Up