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Author Topic: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?  (Read 3792 times)

narikin

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Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« on: November 25, 2011, 04:36:41 pm »

Can people pass on experience with outgassing with framed RC photo papers.

If all standard precautions are taken - prints given plenty of time to air out, blown with a hot air gun (hairdryer) and stored interleaved with tissue to absorb any solvent for a week or two - is there still a likelihood of seeing outgass glass smearing on framed works?

The paper will be good quality RC paper (Lasal Exhibition Luster 300gsm), and I don't wish to swap to all rag or baryta papers, BUT some advice would have you believe no matter what you do you'll get outgassing, and you can never frame an RC print without getting this - true or false?!
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 05:11:01 pm »

We've been around this tree several times before here on LuLa.  I will only briefly touch on my own example.  I let prints dry for a minimum of 48 hours, sometimes longer depending on how ambitious I am about framing (and whether I have any customers who want delivery right away).  Even at the short end, I have NEVER observed outgassing with the following papers:  Epson Exhibition Fiber, Ilford Gold Fiber Silk, or Museo Silver Rag.  I no long use the Epson paper becuase of the high OBA content and I don't have enough experience with Canson Rag Photographique to pass judgement.  I mount on archival foamcore with polypropylene corners and overmat with four ply acid free rag and use acrylic glazing in Nielsen frames..
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narikin

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 07:02:41 pm »

Thanks Alan, appreciate the answer, but I think its well known that such papers you list - Barytas, fibre based, or cotton based do not show outgassing. ever.  It is specifically RC type papers I'm asking about (not necessarily Epson - Moab Lasal, Canon etc).

BTW, a good look at Aardenberg will reveal some RC papers with moderate OBA's and very good longevity. For example Canon Heavyweight outstrips Espon Exhibition Fiber, by about 50 years!
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 12:55:24 am »

If you are concerned about outgassing, just curious why you are opposed to moving away from RC papers?

Aside from that, your steps sound reasonable and probably more than necessary. I personally don't like excessive heat, and let the print lay uncovered for an hour or so then covered with an absorbent paper for a day or two.  Unfortunately, no guarantee ... you can take all the steps you want and might still have problems show up on occasion.  Seems the conditions of where the print is displayed can exacerbate the problem.

As far as the comparison between the Canon RC paper and Epson Exhibition Fiber, I believe that's more about the inks than the paper.  Most of the RC papers are coming from the same factories.
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MHMG

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 08:16:30 am »


As far as the comparison between the Canon RC paper and Epson Exhibition Fiber, I believe that's more about the inks than the paper.  Most of the RC papers are coming from the same factories.

Even comparing the same Ultrachrome ink set on different "traditional fiber" varieties of inkjet paper not RC inkjet, EEF earns significantly lower lightfastness ratings in my testing due to its high OBA content in the ink receptor coating and subsequent yellowing due to burnout of these OBAs.  Interestingly as well, EEF shows continuing changes in media white point with even further light exposure over time that cannot be fully explained by the OBA burnout. There's an additional light-induced chemical discoloration occurring in this paper as well. That said, many printmakers prefer EEF's bright blue-white initial appearance, so it continues to be a very popular paper.  My advice for collectors is simply to be informed. Treat an EEF print not as if it's a more durable "archival pigment" print but more like it's a less stable (i.e., less light fast) chromogenic "traditional color" print.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 05:03:00 pm »

I certainly respect your opinions on this and your points are very valid ... for anyone who feels maximum print life is a critical element, then EEF isn't the best choice.

My comment was more about the Canon inkset typically touted as being better than Epson inks in longevity, so even on tests on the same papers types many claim the Canon inks are better.  You certainly would know better than I whether there is any substantiation to this.  

Of course, this leads things completely off topic to the frequent discussion as to whether a print rated at 100+ years has any chance at actually surviving that long. I"m of the school that too many get hung up on longevity of the print failing to understand that just because a print might last 100 years, it's chances of that have little to do with the print and more to do with becoming famous, collected by significant museums who will preserve your work, or just plain luck ... in other words little chance of it happening for most.

I don't think there will be anyone around 50 years from now who will remember me for my landscape photography except perhaps my direct descendants who knew me personally, and the only prints I've produced through my life that might still exist 75 to 100 years from now are those from my days as a portrait photographer (and those have probably been copied and restored).  So I'm more worried about how the print looks now and for the next couple of decades, and EEF gives me the look that I like compared to other papers - I fit your description. (and if I"m wrong, then someone will be more worried about preserving my files and producing new images from them and not the actual prints I made)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:20:44 pm by Wayne Fox »
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MHMG

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 08:17:43 pm »


My comment was more about the Canon inkset typically touted as being better than Epson inks in longevity, so even on tests on the same papers types many claim the Canon inks are better.  You certainly would know better than I whether there is any substantiation to this.

Rank ordering the OEM pigment ink sets for average overall lightfastness arguably puts HP Vivera pigments on top, Canon Lucia pigments 2nd, and Epson Ultrachrome varieties third (K3,K3VM, and HDR share a limiting yellow ink). However, let me be clear about this: there is considerable overlap in print durability when one factors in specific printer/ink/media combinations. While dye-based inks are highly sensitive to media chemistry, pigmented inks are less sensitive, but they are not immune. Epson Ultrachrome ink on well matched media will outperform Canon Inks or HP inks if media choice is not optimal for the Canon or HP ink.  If it were not so, we'd only have to test each pigmented ink set on one or two media types, and we'd have the issue well documented!

 

Of course, this leads things completely off topic to the frequent discussion as to whether a print rated at 100+ years has any chance at actually surviving that long. I"m of the school that too many get hung up on longevity of the print failing to understand that just because a print might last 100 years, it's chances of that have little to do with the print and more to do with becoming famous, collected by significant museums who will preserve your work, or just plain luck ... in other words little chance of it happening for most.

Museums and archives rarely get the chance to acquire prints when they are relatively new, so prints that end up there did somehow survive the more widely varying real world for many years, sometimes decades. Yes, we are indeed getting OT, but to respond to the validity or lack thereof for 100+ year ratings.... even cheap litho inks on newsprint paper can survive in reasonable condition for 100+ years. We have many examples in libraries and archives that attest to this fact. In other words, longevity ratings are a grossly oversimplified marketing construct. The discussion in our profession needs to be switched from "longevity" to one about print "durability" instead.

Manufacturers and printmakers can only influence the durability of a print process, i.e., the ability of the print to resist change upon exposure to degradation factors like light, heat, humidity, ozone, etc. Print longevity is largely within the purview of the print collector/owner.  In some sense, light is a very special case. "Average" light levels can vary by orders of magnitude even within one's own home environment, and the subsequent fading is essentially proportional to the intensity of the illumination. Hence, one can move a print a few feet over on the wall and double or halve effective rates of degradation without even realizing it. Under this very common circumstance the 100 year prediction for "noticeable fade" becomes 50 or 200 years depending on which way the average light level shifted. Put the same print on a sun porch or use it for commercial display purposes in a front window, and the 100 year rating may be small consolation as the print fades in just a year or two. All other things being equal, manufacturers and printmakers that strive for more durable prints provide the  print owners with more latitude to safely display the prints under a broader variety of real world conditions.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Damir

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 05:46:37 pm »


I don't think there will be anyone around 50 years from now who will remember me for my landscape photography except perhaps my direct descendants who knew me personally, and the only prints I've produced through my life that might still exist 75 to 100 years from now are those from my days as a portrait photographer (and those have probably been copied and restored).  So I'm more worried about how the print looks now and for the next couple of decades, and EEF gives me the look that I like compared to other papers - I fit your description. (and if I"m wrong, then someone will be more worried about preserving my files and producing new images from them and not the actual prints I made)

Wayne you are pesimist  ;)

I am the president of Fotoklub Zagreb - camera club, amateur organisation, that will celebrate 120 years in 2012.
We have collection of almost 8000 photos of our members in which the oldest one have 107 years.
So you never know what will happen with your photos  ;D
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deanwork

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Re: Is outgassing avoidable on RC papers?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 06:25:58 pm »

There is an interesting aspect to this.

The HP Pro Satin rc media has a paper back side not a plastic backing. What I mean is it is not sealed in resin on the back so the gasses can escape just like the fiber gloss media. As far as I know it is the only one made that way, and you wonder why.

 It is a great paper in gamut, sharpness, and doesn't have any strange color cast to the high values like their Premium Satin, and it doesn't have any industrial looking machine texture like Epson Premium Luster does. I have sprayed it several times immediately with the Premier Art spray and never experienced outgassing.

The downside to this paper is that the white point can darken in brilliance over a shorter time period that some of the best rc satin papers, like the Canon Heavyweight Satin ( which is sealed resin on the back). We wouldn't have know about this from Wilhemm of course because he doesn't accurately measure the problems with oba burnout from poorly made papers. But in the Aardenburg tests we clearly see the Pro Satin is having long term difficulties that can effect the color shifts of light hues, like skin tones for instance.  That is a real shame because otherwise it is an excellent paper with a great smooth texture, but no reflections like gloss media.
But I switched to the Canon on both my HP and the Canon printers. It has a good texture, though slightly more than P Satin but it does require curing to avoid outgassing when framed.

My friends in college used to say they didn't care if their type C prints and Polaroid 20x24s lasted after they were dead. But today 25 years later they are alive and well and unfortunately their nice prints are now dead and gone. As Mark has pointed out many times, how long a print lasts depends on a lot of factors but one is the intensity of light. I've seen a lot of color photographs shift badly when exposed to high volumes of light in bright rooms for even very short periods of time. It does happen and it happens a lot. When you print for others, that is all out of your hands so you better do the best you can.



John

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