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View camera / digital back / lens for architectural

View camera
- 2 (40%)
Digital back
- 3 (60%)

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Author Topic: View camera digital architectural  (Read 5351 times)

mazen

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View camera digital architectural
« on: November 22, 2011, 07:14:00 am »

Dear all

  i've been shooting exterior and interior perspective work for some years now using a nikon body and a sigma lens. Correcting alignment and distortion and stitching in computer isn't what i want to do anymore and it wouldn't even match the bottom of what view cam system makes, and i would also like to benefit from the extreme movements of a view camera in digital format, for example the splendor of shifting sideways to get a glimpse of a building's side while maintaining perfect parallel perspective of the facade isn't possible with anything less than a good view camera, or the rise of the lens to capture bottom to top of a building while maintaing perfect perspective distortion free shot. Sinar Artec is over my budget limit. It's not easy to find web info on how to combo a good and cheaper alternative gear. i looked at the following list of items to combine, but since i'm new to this niche, any technical info from experienced photographers would be helpful to customize a (camera / back / 2 lenses / tripod head) which will make me and my client happy.  

- So far i found the following to be ideal combination:
TOYO-VIEW VX23D
Hasselblad CFV-50

- Please advise on 2 digital lenses, a wide of (21mm eqvl)
and a standard of (50mm eqvl)

Also please be free to advise on totally different camera / back / etc... combo

- Budget USD 22.000.00 max

For a start, I can exclude the standard lens to match my budget. i'm interested only in brand new equipment. I also would like a lighter alternative since i carry my equipment around city blocks.

Best regards
Mazen




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Weldon Brewster

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 08:54:01 am »

You could get a Cambo Wide RS w/ 35mm lens for 6 to 7k and a refurb Phase One P45+ for around 14k.  That would be a pretty good setup for for your budget.  I shoot with a Cambo Wide DS and a Phase One back and I love it.  I can get almost 20mm of movement in any direction (It's more than it sounds.) I used Toyo cameras for years and they're great cameras but that might be a bit cumbersome to carry around.  Give the guys at Capture Integration a call they'll get you setup.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 10:55:24 am »

You could get a Cambo Wide RS w/ 35mm lens for 6 to 7k and a refurb Phase One P45+ for around 14k.  That would be a pretty good setup for for your budget.  I shoot with a Cambo Wide DS and a Phase One back and I love it.  I can get almost 20mm of movement in any direction (It's more than it sounds.) I used Toyo cameras for years and they're great cameras but that might be a bit cumbersome to carry around.  Give the guys at Capture Integration a call they'll get you setup.

Note my signature. I strongly stand behind my advice as being technically sound and try very hard to provide fair, honest, real world advice but it must be stated up front that we (Capture Integration) do not sell any Hasselblad gear and must be considered biased.

I'd strongly suggest a tech camera over a view camera for what you're describing.
http://www.captureintegration.com/tech-cameras/digital-view-camera/

Traditional view cameras run into several problems compared to a tech camera.

Most importantly:
- precision of focus is difficult with view cameras (even those with very fine gearing), especially for wide angle images
- the rigidity of the rear standard of most view cameras is questionable when stitching two frames, even more questionable when stitching several frames, and even more so with wider lenses where the same amount of wiggle room is more problematic.
- they are larger, heavier, and move more in the same amount of wind.

Less important:
- if and when you need to focus stack it's much easier to do with a helical mount with defined distance and hyperfocal markings than with a rail focused view camera
- ground glass focus is much harder when trying to get 40+ megapixels worth of details properly focused on a 645 sized area of the glass than it was to get a 4x5's worth of detail focused on a 4x5 sized area of ground glass. Even with a loupe, experience, and patience it is hard. Of course ground glass can be used on both tech and view cameras so this is more of a sidebar than a comparison between the two.

The following features are often very useful in architectural photography on a tech camera:
- long exposure capable (at least a minute), a dusk shot at f/16 with a center filter and a graduated ND filter can easily require more exposure time than many backs are capable of. Even if you've not gone past 10-15 seconds on a Nikon the physics involved usually mean you'll need 4-8 times as long of exposure on the longest end than you currently use.
- High Res - both because the subject matter and usage often calls for highly detailed images and because the higher the res on the same sensor the smaller the chance of moire in repetitious architectural patterns and fabrics.
- Stand Alone Use - some backs have a battery on-board; others require you to carry an additional external accessory to power/run the back when shooting on a tech camera untethered (this is less important if you shoot only tethered and the back can work without an AC powered firewire hub)
- Large sensor - so that your wide angles stay wide. If you're ok frequently stitching (moving the back only, keeping the lens and body stationary) then this is less important.

That list points squarely to a Phase One P45 or P45+. Not that other backs can't do the job well, but none will be able to match the P45 or P45+ in the feature set outlined above. Well, an IQ180 would fit the bill as well but that is pretty far out of your budget.

We have (or had at the time of this writing) a Cambo Wide DS and 35mm Lens bundle that fits your needs pretty well and is the most cost effective I can think of. There are several good reasons (features, ergonomics, aesthetics etc) you should consider a "nicer" system such as the RS or Arca Swiss RM3Di but if your budget is limited then I'd encourage you to think of the tech body as a glorified piece of precisely milled metal that holds the lens and back together and spend your limited budget more on the back/lens and less on the body.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:26:00 pm by dougpetersonci »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 12:23:12 pm »

- Please advise on 2 digital lenses, a wide of (21mm eqvl)
and a standard of (50mm eqvl)

When deciding on focal lengths it's very useful to make a decision up-front if you want to use a single frame capture or a 2-frame stitch as your "standard" (most commonly used) method of capture.

Stitching (by moving the back, not the lens) allows you to get higher resolution and makes your "effective" sensor size larger (which in turn makes any given lens "wider").

For instance
- A half-frame (cropping 30% of the vertical and 30% of the horizontal) using the P45 and the Schneider 47mm lens is the same as a single-frame from a Nikon D700 and a 47mm lens. The end file would be 19 megapixels (still more than the 4:3 crop from a D700).
- A single-frame using the P45 and the Schneider 47mm lens is the same as a single-frame from a Nikon D700 and a 33mm lens. The end file would be 39 megapixels.
- A two-shot stitch using the P45 and the Schneider 47mm lens is the same as a single-frame from a Nikon D700 and a 25mm lens. The end file would be 68 megapixels.
- A three-shot stitch using the P45 and the Schneider 47mm lens is the same as a single-frame from a Nikon D700 and a 20mm lens. The end file would be 96 megapixels.

As you can see the combination of stitching within the image circle and the high res of a digital backs gives you a lot of options even with just one lens (assuming the lens has a large image circle and the body has a good range of movements allowed).

There are some negatives with stitching. When you stitch though you do increase post processing time (not as much as when you do nodal stitching and the software has to bend/warp the images together and you have to crop out significant amounts of the composite image) and shooting time (though it only takes a few extra seconds to capture left/right or left/center/right frames). You also are taking up more of the image circle with your stitch so have less room for movements (e.g. rise). When stitching three vertical frames you also end up with a fairly wide aspect ratio). The technique itself also only works in some kinds of shooting. If you shoot a lo of public spaces with members of the public floating in and out then stitching doesn't work as well. If you shoot a lot at dusk and dawn then the rapidly changing lights and long exposure (with the requisite dark frames) then stitching won't work as well. In that case you may need to make sure your kit includes a dedicated wide angle like the Schneider 24XL (w/P45: 17mm equivalent for FF dSLR), or 28XL (w/P45: 20mm equivalent for FF dSLR) so you can capture what you need in a single frame.

These are the sorts of questions we deal with nearly every day and we (Capture Integration) have developed several tools and run a lot of real world tests (as well as gathering real world feedback from our customers) to answer them.

Attached are some visual aids I made for you.




Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:25:28 pm by dougpetersonci »
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mazen

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 06:39:15 am »

You could get a Cambo Wide RS w/ 35mm lens for 6 to 7k and a refurb Phase One P45+ for around 14k.  That would be a pretty good setup for for your budget.  I shoot with a Cambo Wide DS and a Phase One back and I love it. 

Thanks Weldon, i'm now reconsidering my list and a tech cambo with 1 lens and a ref p45+ is a good alternative, but i also discovered that i need another body like the Ph1 DF or Mamiya and at least another lens to do products work in studio. now i'm still considering my options, thank you for the feedback. mazen
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haefnerphoto

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 09:08:55 am »

Mazen, I went thru this process earlier in the year.  Because I shoot both studio automotive work as well as architecture it was my hope that the Arca M2 would work for me in both capacities.  After a number of shots with it I decided that the tech camera was a much better option, focus was close to impossible with a wide lens (35mm) so I was able to replace the view camera for a Arca RM3di (thanks to the folks at Capture Integration).  I use P45's for my back and because of the timer on the back of the P45+ that would be my recommendation.  The 35mm Schneider works well for me, I don't find it too wide for a single capture and if I want a wider field of view I'll stitch.  Jim
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mazen

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 12:48:22 pm »

so I was able to replace the view camera for a Arca RM3di (thanks to the folks at Capture Integration).  I use P45's for my back
Thank you Jim, i also found an article, so it means the Arca RM3di bayonet has a focusing capability which enables any lens attached to extend away from the film plane? and shoot macro with standard and tele lenses? please advise. This reminds me of my old fujiGX80II back in the 90s. If thats the case then Arca RM3di is probably what i need for architectural work and other. one more question please. with p45+ and the Arca RM3di, which 2 digital lenses you recommend for a (28mm equiv single shot for architecture) and a (60mm equiv single shot for still life and macro) talking 24x36 format. thanks again. i like your portfolio. Regards
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haefnerphoto

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 06:51:19 pm »

Thank you Jim, i also found an article, so it means the Arca RM3di bayonet has a focusing capability which enables any lens attached to extend away from the film plane? and shoot macro with standard and tele lenses? please advise. This reminds me of my old fujiGX80II back in the 90s. If thats the case then Arca RM3di is probably what i need for architectural work and other. one more question please. with p45+ and the Arca RM3di, which 2 digital lenses you recommend for a (28mm equiv single shot for architecture) and a (60mm equiv single shot for still life and macro) talking 24x36 format. thanks again. i like your portfolio. Regards

Mazen, I haven't tried to focus close with the Arca, although I don't see why it wouldn't work.  Perhaps Doug could answer this question with a bit more authority.  The 35mm Schneider I like a lot and it would be close to the same field of view as a 28mm on a 24x36 format.  The 60mm is just a little longer than normal so it's corresponding focal length in the 645 format is in the 80-90mm range I believe.  Working with the camera in the studio could be challenging, you'd have to have the ground glass to view and most likely it won't be very bright.  You'd also want an accurate method of determining the subject's distance, focus is critical with this system.  For studio work I use the Mamiya 645, their 80 and 120 macros are pretty sharp and reasonably priced (used).  Thanks for the compliment on the work.  Attached is an image taken today with the Arca and 35 Schneider.  Jim
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mazen

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 04:40:21 am »

Attached is an image taken today with the Arca and 35 Schneider.  Jim

Thank you for everything Jim. It's amazing how these systems are steady as a block and distortion free, the wide angle shot of the cathedral with the 35 Schneider looks like it has been taken with a normal or a short tele due to its perfectly straight lines, and also to my untrained eye in this category. I watched the LuminousLandscape video review abt the arca rm3d and realized how tricky and time consuming close-up focusing can be, but it's a plus to have it rather than not, and i think with some training it'll become an easy task like earlier large format film studio work. All the best and thanks again. Mazen
ps: attached is a shot of a series of landscapes/mountains i'm enjoying with currently in Abruzzo italy. shot with a nikon and a sigma 10-20mm. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:42:00 am by mazen »
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mazen

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Re: View camera digital architectural
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 01:55:35 pm »

...got it, Linhof 4x5 MASTER TECHNIKA 3000 and 2 lenses. I shoot film for architectural work and studio work, digital back maybe next year. Thanks for all the input. Mazen
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