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Author Topic: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article  (Read 94280 times)

bjanes

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2011, 05:04:11 pm »

The enclosed file shows Imatest evaluations of a 41 step Stouffer wedge (havíng a scene range of 4.1, 13.5 stops) it was shot on a simple light table, uneven illumination probably causes the knee on the digital image. Obviously the film image is affected by both film and scanner characteristics.

My own experience with Imatest and the Stouffer wedge indicate that the knee to which you refer is largely due to veiling flare. As you know, it is very important to mask off the surrounding area of the light table, but flare can still arise from the brighter steps of the image. One can test for uniformity of illumination by taking a control image without the wedge in place and measure the luminance of regions where the steps are located. If necessary, one can calibrate and apply a correction factor. Iliah Borg had some good pointers on exposing a step wedge, but I can't remember the link, but his point was that it is a difficult thing to do properly.

Another way to deal with flare is to take several images at different exposures and then splice them together as is done in the Dynamic Range module if Imatest. The shadow images have less flare. I haven't tried this method as it appears not to be included in my copy of Imatest Studio--it may be only in the Master version.

Regards,

Bill
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fotometria gr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2011, 05:28:37 pm »

-snip-

     Three years ago at a local camera store I saw a man trying to sell or trade in his used Nikon F3.  the store simply was not interested in it at all.   Three weeks ago when I picked up one of those 8mm fisheyes, I was talking to the clerk at the camera store, saying " I hear this won't cover 35mm?"

     The clerk brightened up and asked me what film bodies I have.  So I told her I had three Nikon film bodies, and she said "Hey, we're looking for good used film bodies if you want to sell them, especailly Nikon."   When I asked why Nikon and not other brands, she explained it had to do with the backward compatability of many Nikon lenses.

    Anyhow, like you said above, this isn't scientific polling either, but something I've noticed recently too. 


    On the the endless 8x10 vs whatever digital debate - there is *one* business reason to use a large format film camera over digital - public perception.  When you photograph somebody using a 4x5 for exmaple, they often perk right up, thinking this is "something special" - it's gonna be an extra good picutre because of the camera  used.  :)

    Hey, don't get me wrong, I love my D7000, but sometimes in poltics and business, perception plays out over reality.   Still for the other 99% of the real world and commercial work,  I think - large volume of work, gotta get the work done and have it all ready and proofed 5 minutes ago - yep, digital.   At least for me, it seems digital is the business end of thngs, film is the artistic stuff that I like to do on my won't but ever won't sell
:)

joe

A major advantage of film is that its a superb media to teach photography. There is no serious school of photography that doesn't teach "film photography" to their students. Film has proven to be a very good method for mature photographers as well to expand their knowledge. I do teach advanced photography and 90% of my teaching is based on film, I feel that digital is only a modern method to speed things up and store them efficiently, in reality with digital we do nothing more than shoot negs (raw), polaroids(jpeg) or slides(tiffs), develop them (we only digitally replaced chemicals), and replace enlarger printing techniques or filteration with digital equivalents. I believe that the difference of an experienced (with film) photographer in technique and approach as well as his ability to find solutions and master lighting is evident to a third knowledgeable eye compared to some newcomers that ignored or surpassed film techniques as useless! In fact I have recently met many of those newcomers confessing the previous truth and re-approaching photography trying to catch up. All the above of course has nothing to do with superiority or not of the media, it only is an observation of mine (and others) that now use 95% digital in all aspects of my photography! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2011, 05:37:52 pm »

Bill,

Thanks for the info. In the context the "knee" does not matter, as I wanted to illustrate the difference between film and sensor, and the setup was the same for both.

Best regards
Erik

My own experience with Imatest and the Stouffer wedge indicate that the knee to which you refer is largely due to veiling flare. As you know, it is very important to mask off the surrounding area of the light table, but flare can still arise from the brighter steps of the image. One can test for uniformity of illumination by taking a control image without the wedge in place and measure the luminance of regions where the steps are located. If necessary, one can calibrate and apply a correction factor. Iliah Borg had some good pointers on exposing a step wedge, but I can't remember the link, but his point was that it is a difficult thing to do properly.

Another way to deal with flare is to take several images at different exposures and then splice them together as is done in the Dynamic Range module if Imatest. The shadow images have less flare. I haven't tried this method as it appears not to be included in my copy of Imatest Studio--it may be only in the Master version.

Regards,

Bill
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EricWHiss

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #103 on: September 28, 2011, 02:06:49 am »

It's pretty obvious that most working pro's went to digital for reasons other than resolution.  Today's fast pace wouldn't support film, and the advantages of shooting tethered to a screen for all to see are just two reasons, but the incremental costs are lower too.  I mean if for some reason this comparison showed that 8x10 film was far superior, how many of you would drop your MFDB or DSLR and go shoot 8x10 from now on?  Any comparison over resolution or detail just seems silly to me since it probably wouldn't change much.  But I do see compelling reasons to shoot film - for fine art, for the feel, for the fun.  
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fotometria gr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #104 on: September 28, 2011, 03:15:35 am »

It's pretty obvious that most working pro's went to digital for reasons other than resolution.  Today's fast pace wouldn't support film, and the advantages of shooting tethered to a screen for all to see are just two reasons, but the incremental costs are lower too.  I mean if for some reason this comparison showed that 8x10 film was far superior, how many of you would drop your MFDB or DSLR and go shoot 8x10 from now on?  Any comparison over resolution or detail just seems silly to me since it probably wouldn't change much.  But I do see compelling reasons to shoot film - for fine art, for the feel, for the fun.  
+1
Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #105 on: September 28, 2011, 06:33:28 am »

OK,

But do you really need to shoot 8x10" or 4x5" painful enough?

Best regards
Erik

+1
Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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KevinA

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #106 on: September 28, 2011, 11:34:01 am »

So other than resolution, what exactly does a 180 digi back have in picture quality over a 10x8?
I can't think it's much cheaper, smaller and easier to carry, quicker is about all I can think of. Will it have the colour range of the new colour neg films or the DR? I doubt it.
It's been obvious for some time that digital records sharp edges better than film, I doubt you need the biggest back to show more whiskers on the models face compared with any size sheet of film. But is that all there is to it regarding picture quality.
I have been shooting the odd roll of film these last few months for my library, I still shoot loads more digital. I send low res out of a requested subject on both without comment, I'm getting a disproportionate number of film sales to digital (Canon 1DsmkIII) considering I send lots more digital in a selection with only one or two film scans. Make of that what you will.

Kevin.

www.treewithoutabird.com
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Daniel Browning

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #107 on: September 28, 2011, 11:39:39 am »

Iliah Borg had some good pointers on exposing a step wedge, but I can't remember the link, but his point was that it is a difficult thing to do properly.

May have been this one:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=27735568
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--Daniel

fotometria gr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #108 on: September 28, 2011, 11:43:36 am »

OK,

But do you really need to shoot 8x10" or 4x5" painful enough?

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, I have already stated earlier that I don't use sheet film anymore, only up to 120/220, even on my P2! I also stated that I now only use negative for the circumstances only that the DR of the DB can't cope or when I need more resolution for enlargements that my DB can provide me. I also prefer to use my Contax than my P2 and sometimes even "cheat" on LF to keep the Contax if I can get away with movements in PP. I find that the 120/220 images when scanned (up to 160mpx for 6x12) are superb (even if they are 60mpx 6x4.5), I never tried to compare them with MFDB because I don't care! (superb is good enough anyway)! (Highlight) DR is IMO the most important aspect in photography and thus my prime target when I shoot. Analysis (which is different to resolution) is a fourth of fifth factor when I judge a print. Since for me A PHOTOGRAPH is only the printed image and not any image on a monitor, I print and then judge if the impact or message would access the receiver (good photograph) or not (poor photograph).  8) I do find LF (sheet film) painful and even useless if you want. As it has been stated before by others, sheet film is a bagger to scan and the results are often (always IMO) worst than 120/220 because of the area and the linearity problem that this causes on all scanners. Mind you that I've never shot 8x10 (only up to 4x5) and this is painful enough! IMO LF belongs to pre-war ages where film quality was so bad... that only the size of it could save the photographer. I am a late 70s/early 80s photographer where film was much better, it was at those days that photographers started to use 120/220 on their LF cameras because they wanted to keep their movements capability and its at those days that "flexbodys" started to appear, now, 30some years later, we want to re-event the wheel, IMV there is no room for it! Film is only up to 120/220 and this until (not in the near future) digital (which is still in its "stone age") will overcome its remaining disadvantages. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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John Rodriguez

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #109 on: September 28, 2011, 12:09:27 pm »

I'm in the same boat here, I've switched to 4x5 for landscape because I can print much larger then possible with my 5d from well scanned files, and my volume of work doesn't justify the investment at current prices.  Each medium obviously has it's benefits, but one benefit of film I haven't seen mentioned much is the ability to change the "sensor" to suit differing scene contrast. 

With a DSLR I've found that when adjusting an image to bring up the contrast levels enough in a really flat scene (say less then 5 stops), I have a really hard time getting color images to keep looking realistic - maybe the additional bits of MFDBs would help here. However, once I switched to film I found I could just shoot slides in these situations and wind up with files that are much easier to work with.  This could be a great feature in digital - the ability to change the dynamic range of the sensor for a given situation, with the contrast curve contracting but keeping the high and low end points the same vertical distance apart. 

If you think about a low volume and very high quality workflow, large format film still stands it ground and in a low volume scenario, all the downsides and sacrifices you mention really are not such a big deal.
I'm thinking about landscapes and portraiture work for example. For instance, I do landscapes, often in long, several days high mountain treks and shot around 500 4x5 negs and slides during the last year. As much as would like to improve my productivity, it's simply not possible mainly due to the light and weather conditions I consider valid for my landscape photography. I own an FF digital camera and the curious thing is that I still can work the same amount of scenes per hour as with 4x5. Very low volume. Under these conditions, I consider film to be the right choice because:
1). The entering fee is pretty low (about what it costs to buy a 5d2 camera)
2). Large prints (even scanned in a low end flatbed scanner) run circles around my 5d2. For larger prints a drumscanner can be used if desired.
3). The 10-15k that separate my setup from a nice MFDB can easily buy me several thousands processed frames. I'd need at least 8-10 years of treks and travels to work through so many material.
4). The 3rd or the 4th landscape sold covered the whole equipment purchase
I could sell all the film and 35mm digital stuff and buy a 645D for example but can't find a reason for doing so, it's anti economical.
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telyt

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2011, 12:55:04 pm »

With a DSLR I've found that when adjusting an image to bring up the contrast levels enough in a really flat scene (say less then 5 stops), I have a really hard time getting color images to keep looking realistic - maybe the additional bits of MFDBs would help here.

The 5D's bit depth may be the limiting factor.  Those who have compared 5D and Leica DMR files (16 bits/pixel) have found that the DMR files are far more tolarant of this processing than the 5D files are.
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bcooter

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2011, 01:27:28 pm »

Since most of the positive film replies on this thread come from low volume or casual enthusiasts, it's obvious why there is a  film bias in these replies and it makes sense.

Think about it.  How many plug ins, software suites, inkjet paper is designed to give a "digital look" to an image?  Now how many promise a film look?

So like it or not, a dozen years into heavy digital acceptance, photographers are still emulating film looks on their digital capture.

Then again, if I did not shoot for commerce, I would also shoot film and not because of "superior image quality" or ease, just because there is such a wide range of used medium format cameras on the marketplace for pennies on the dollar and like most people, I and the rest of our studio is into computer overload, especially since we've moved a great deal of our business to motion imagery.

Early on digital did very well for my business as it opened up new revenue and artistic streams of offering concept to final press ready delivery.  It also kept us in front of the client longer, which as most business people know, the more your imbedded with your client, the more work comes your way.

Today it's different.  Now we shoot 2 or 3 times the volume we ever did with film and the most obvious aspect of digital is how long imagery stays in the pipeline.  Nobody asks for 1 year use, it's now 2, 3, or 4 years.  Same with talent because with digital it's common for 6 months after shooting a project, the client/agency has requests to move subject A behind subject b, swap a head, move a prop, even outline the subjects into a totally different scene.  6 months later the requests come again.

With film, that very rarely happened.  I guess one reason is film was less accessible, harder to judge if a subject A would look good behind subject B and post production costs were much higher today than in the past.  For the cost of scanning, matching, swapping and retouching film based images, along with reliscencing talent and the photographer's use made it cheaper to just design a new concept and shoot something fresh.

Digital changed all of that, at least in the world of commerce.  After all how long do you see campaigns running?  I see them go in and out of the media for years and I don't think a week goes by where we don't get one of these requests.

Digital also changed the way we work on set.  Never with film did a client sit in front of a polaroid and talk about it for an hour, or even dream of seeing every frame in 27" wide glory.  Never with film capture did a client become so "involved" with a shoot that their committee direction was somewhat overwhelming.  

Today the photographer needs a strong personality to keep the project on track and into an interesting style, given the amount of "suggestions" we all receive from a client.

Looking forward and back I would have done things a little different.  To begin with, I never would have progressed in still cameras past the original 1ds1.  That camera today continues to shoot a file that is probably more "film like", than the $100,000's of dollars of cameras I have bought subsequent to their 1ds1.

I know this will drive the mucho megapixel photographers on this forum crazy but when it comes to large prints everybody thinks a large print looks good.  In fact early on when shooting a 6 or 11 mpx camera, if a client had a question about the quality I'd just pull a couple of 40" prints and send them out.

At this size everyone would go wow and never question digital again.  In fact looking back at the original 1ds1, our workflow was twice as fast as today, our expenses less, our turnaround faster and our knowledge of the file more intimate.

When I think of how easy our workflow was, vs. how complicated it became with processing every frame for web galleries, working with expensive systems that produced moire and color cast, I kind of laugh at myself for spending so much time and money to get a result that nobody was asking for.  

Like everyone I got caught up in bigger is better and the thing I noticed that people started talking about sharpness and lack of grain, instead of the artistic values of the photograph.

If I had to classify the last decade of digital I'd call it the decade of over sharpness.

(At least that is my experience).

So, as we've moved to motion imagery we've learned our lesson and those past still experiences are the reason I bought a second RED One, instead of a new Epic.  We might eventually go to an Epic or a motion camera with a smaller form factor, but it won't be for "ultimate image quality" because today the RED Ones' (much like my original 1ds') shoots a file that is equal to our beyond anything a client is asking for.

Personally, I believe the level of digital capture has hit a plateau and new cameras may make your happy, (after all everyone loves new stuff), but today I see more and more clients concerned with the photographer's  concept, the beauty, the reality, the style of the image much more than they value the actual detail or sharpness.

I've found the best solution is the most proven, the one that works, produces the look I'm after and  the system I'm most familiar with.


IMO

BC



« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:29:19 pm by bcooter »
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Graham Mitchell

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2011, 01:57:34 pm »

So other than resolution, what exactly does a 180 digi back have in picture quality over a 10x8?
I can't think it's much cheaper, smaller and easier to carry, quicker is about all I can think of.

It is a lot smaller and lighter, as the LL article photo illustrates, especially if you have to carry 100 sheets of 8x10 as well as the camera:



Apart from that you have all the usual benefits of digital: opportunity to review files instantly for focus, DOF, motion blur, etc, and change settings if required, opportunity to exposure bracket for as much DR as you want (still scenes only), ability to shoot in all sorts of light without worrying about colour balance, much faster frame rate than 8x10, more accurate colour, EXIF, etc
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Quentin

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2011, 05:34:01 pm »

8x10 film has 4x the area of 4x5 film.  Is it therefore suggested that a 20mp back or dslr is the equal of 4x5 film?  Just a thought.
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, Arbitrator

fotometria gr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #114 on: September 29, 2011, 06:13:07 pm »

8x10 film has 4x the area of 4x5 film.  Is it therefore suggested that a 20mp back or dslr is the equal of 4x5 film?  Just a thought.
An 80 mpx back isn't either...., I think (I'm not sure really) that the article mentioned on the OP was assuming that IQ 180 is better (?) than any other DB and then that 8x10 is better than any other analog (?) ....and then it turned to ....analog vs. digital (sic) comparison.... and then the scanning problems came into play.... and then many (me as well) suggested that may be 120/220 is better than sheet because its easier and more linear to scan and then................ AH! the OP was about somebody scanned 8x10 in a crappy way and tried to compare it with the IQ 180! ........I think what he did was ......to lower the resolution of the scanner so that the final image will have the same digital size as an 80mpx DB! ......he obviously thought that this is an ....equal approach to compare things!
 Jesus..., I have confused myself!!  ::) I am a fun of 22mpx backs, the few times I want more resolution I shoot 6x4.5, this is 60mpx and IS COMPARABLE to 22mpx DB, NOT 4x5 but only tiny 6x4.5!!! Are we all nuts? Thanks for the bright statement Quentin. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 04:46:47 am by fotometria gr »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2011, 08:49:45 pm »

Hi,

In the 2006 great 2006 shootout it was essentially found that P45 performed on par with 4x5. No doubt, 8x10 film is four times the area of  4x5" but it is not necessary the case that four times the area gives four times the information. To begin with, MTF is essentially inverseley pproportional to aperture. Once a lens is diffraction limited, resolution will be cut in half when doubling f-number. Let's assume that a Rodenstock Digitar HR lens is used on digital back. This lens will perform best at aperture f/5.6, or possibly even f/4. Let's assume that an 4x5" camera is used at f/11. Even with a perfect lens, at f/11 resolution of the lens will be half of the Digitar at 5.6. Or MTF, for a given size of small detail will be double. Stopping down to f/22 would again cut resolution in half.

Another factor is that the folks replacing 8x10" by digital assert exact focusing, either by shimming the back to lens, within 0.01 mm and using it with a laser rangefinder, or using "live view" and thereby asserting correct focus at the pixel level. The final point is that digital images will sharpen better than film images because they are essentially noise less.

With film there is the issue of film flatness. Suction backs obviously help, but probably nothing the normal user has in the field. But as film plane is not exactly predictible, focus bracketing is not really possible. In addition, you will need to wait for the film to be developed before focusing can be evaluated.

Sharpness and resolution is not the same. Sharpness is edge contrast for fine detail, while resolution is the limit where edge contrast drops under a certain limit. My experience is that 6x7 film scanned at 3200 PPI probably outresolves 24MP, but the images is much more noisy.Once you look at the image, sharpness dependes much on sharpening. I will repeat the test with 6000 PPI drum scans.

The test perhaps fails to show that 8oMP digital will match and surpass 8x10", but it shows that it is easy fail to match 80MP digital with 8x10". It also shows that Alpa lenses on Alpa with "live view" focusing outperform the same back on a MF SLR with the same 80MP back.

Best regards
Erik

8x10 film has 4x the area of 4x5 film.  Is it therefore suggested that a 20mp back or dslr is the equal of 4x5 film?  Just a thought.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:22:53 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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jeremypayne

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2011, 09:57:01 pm »

(I'm not sure really)

Say that again. 

Rinse and repeat.
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fotometria gr

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #117 on: September 30, 2011, 04:57:36 am »

Say that again. 

Rinse and repeat.
Was only trying to be sarcastic, perhaps my English didn't help....  :) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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jeremypayne

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2011, 07:14:29 am »

Was only trying to be sarcastic, perhaps my English didn't help....  :) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Stop trying to be sarcastic ... try being quiet. 
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clayh

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Re: IQ180 Vs. 8X10 film article
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2011, 08:36:20 am »

I'm jumping into this thread well after it has become tired and worn out. But for me, the article's testing methodology seemed designed to make the 8x10 fail. I have no dog in this fight one way or the other, since I shoot both film and digital avidly. I owned a P45 back for about two years as well, and am very familiar with the pros and cons of MFD backs. I also have an Aztek HR8000 film scanner, and I can tell you that with good technique and good lenses, there is no way that the IQ180 will out-resolve a properly scanned 8x10 piece of film that has been thoughtfully exposed and processed. Heck, I have seen the results of 8000 dpi scans of 35mm Adox document film shot with Leica lenses that blow away the 39megapixel backs. And that is from a 35mm film area!

But as someone pointed out earlier, digital backs are very, very, very good and very, very convenient and fast. The time needed to expose, develop and properly scan a piece of sheet film is exponentially greater than what is required with a good MF back. But there are certain qualities and attributes of film such as dynamic range and its ability to 'fail gracefully' as the highlights get really bright that digital still cannot supply.

For me, it is great that we have so many excellent options now. Whether one is quote*BETTER is really beside the point. Just use what gives you the results you want and allows you to work in the way you want.
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