645DF Replacement?

[markymarkrb]

I was watching the video on LL tonight on the Leaf Aptus II 12 and IQ180 and it was mentioned that a 645DF replacement was in the works.  Does anyone have any additional information on this or a timeframe with some leaked details?

[henrikfoto]

How many times have Mamiya upgraded their 645 now??
As soon as everybody have invested in the latest body a new and better
body will arrive, and the "old" one looses 80% of it's value.

 

[ondebanks]

How many times have Mamiya upgraded their 645 now??

9 times, since the original was launched in 1975.
Oh - was that a rhetorical question? 

As soon as everybody have invested in the latest body a new and better
body will arrive, and the "old" one looses 80% of it's value.

 

So, save yourself 80% by buying the second-from-latest model. Not everyone really needs the latest.

Ray

[Ken Doo]

From a digital perspective, I consider the AF/AFD bodies different from the previous 645 iterations.

Mamiya's original 645AF was released in the late '90s I believe (when I got my first 645AF).

Mamiya: 645AF; 645AFD; 645AFD II; 645AFDIII; 645DF
                                        Phase:  645AF;    645DF

Similarly:  Hasselblad H1 (~late 90s), H2, H3, H4

 

[Cineski]

I sure wish the new body will include film back compatability because I'd actually buy into it.  Digi backs for Phase are widely avail as rentals and I still shoot film for some jobs.

[Doug Peterson]

For better or for worse I think it's very safe to say the chances of any future Phase/Mamiya bodies supporting film is essentially zero.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Cineski]

Which is very unfortunate.  Or at least make the camera able to take the old backs and not worry about producing new ones.  I really think they're cutting a lot of people out of buying their gear considering there's a big market for rental backs.  I just don't have the funds for a complete digital medium format system and bought into Contax 645 because I can shoot film and rent a back.  A lot of people will buy into a new system that offers film with back rentals that wouldn't normally buy into MF digital because of cost.

[EricWHiss]

Camera designers are facing increasingly fine tolerances for optimum performance.  Unfortunately they have decided to take the design route where the tolerances are controlled in the factory - ala Leica S2, not by the service tech or end user.   I'd much prefer a design where a built in adjustment method was made such that a back could still be removed and exchanged or cleaned or swapped out for film. 

[fotometria gr]

For better or for worse I think it's very safe to say the chances of any future Phase/Mamiya bodies supporting film is essentially zero.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

Masters Series Workshop:
New England Landscape - Fall Color (Oct 5-8)

There is nothing that stops them technically to do so..., its just that the market cost of the film back would be so high, that somebody would rather buy an AFD/2/3 S/H body with a film back (to use as back-up) and ....keep the change! Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

[fotometria gr]

Which is very unfortunate.  Or at least make the camera able to take the old backs and not worry about producing new ones.  I really think they're cutting a lot of people out of buying their gear considering there's a big market for rental backs.  I just don't have the funds for a complete digital medium format system and bought into Contax 645 because I can shoot film and rent a back.  A lot of people will buy into a new system that offers film with back rentals that wouldn't normally buy into MF digital because of cost.

I also use Contax 645 (with DB) and I have no intention to change it. The only thing that I would like to see an improvement at is a modern AF. I am sure that if Kyocera had let P1 to continue the production of Contax when they asked for it, there would have been no film backs produced for a new Contax either. Cheers Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Ken Doo]

Renting a DF body (or its successor) will be chump change when the time comes that you need to rent a MFDB system.  In otherwords, shoot film with your desired film body and then renting the digital body that was designed with digital in mind.

Sure it would be nice if a body really could do it all---film and digital.  But tolerances and quality demands make it more difficult.

Jack of all trades and master of none.  Since I am 100% digital, I'd rather have a camera built with the fine tolerances of digital in mind.  That said, I wait to see what is in store for the next Phase camera body...   

[fotometria gr]

Renting a DF body (or its successor) will be chump change when the time comes that you need to rent a MFDB system.  In otherwords, shoot film with your desired film body and then renting the digital body that was designed with digital in mind.

Sure it would be nice if a body really could do it all---film and digital.  But tolerances and quality demands make it more difficult.

Jack of all trades and master of none.  Since I am 100% digital, I'd rather have a camera built with the fine tolerances of digital in mind.  That said, I wait to see what is in store for the next Phase camera body...   

I can assure you that digital tolerances are not different than .....film tolerances! If a camera has an interchangeable digital back, it can have a film back as well, it won't affect its tolerances! The Mamiya or the Contax don't have a gear system to advance film, they have to use a film back with built in motor to advance it, this increases complexity and cost and they can't have enough customers to consume the film backs, the reason for the expected new upgrade of the Mamiya is the better adaptation/communication between camera and DB in aspects like AF, battery communication, flash control, metering, ...etc. It will certainly be very nice if they can retain the older film back capability, it will help sales as well but they won't be producing FB anymore. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

[Ken Doo]

I can assure you that digital tolerances are not different than .....film tolerances! If a camera has an interchangeable digital back, it can have a film back as well, it won't affect its tolerances! The Mamiya or the Contax don't have a gear system to advance film, they have to use a film back with built in motor to advance it, this increases complexity and cost and they can't have enough customers to consume the film backs, the reason for the expected new upgrade of the Mamiya is the better adaptation/communication between camera and DB in aspects like AF, battery communication, flash control, metering, ...etc. It will certainly be very nice if they can retain the older film back capability, it will help sales as well but they won't be producing FB anymore. Cheers, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

Actually, the "expected new upgrade" has already happened---the new DF body has already foreclosed the use of the HM401/402 filmbacks. The "extra pins" are already in use on the DF body to facilitate communication on the new P+ and IQ series MFDBs.  It's a done deal---no more film backs (on the DF).  And if you've absorbed the efforts made in shimming MFDBs, then it becomes much more apparent that the tolerances for digital are a bit more demanding than film, particularly with the most recent high resolution MFDBs.  You're right that despite that digital may require more precision, it should not effect slapping on a filmback, but absent the pins it ain't gonna happen.  The focus has gone completely digital---as Doug says, for better or for worse.

ken  

[fotometria gr]

Actually, the "expected new upgrade" has already happened---the new DF body has already foreclosed the use of the HM401/402 filmbacks. The "extra pins" are already in use on the DF body to facilitate communication on the new P+ and IQ series MFDBs.  It's a done deal---no more film backs (on the DF).  And if you've absorbed the efforts made in shimming MFDBs, then it becomes much more apparent that the tolerances for digital are a bit more demanding than film, particularly with the most recent high resolution MFDBs.  You're right that despite that digital may require more precision, it should not effect slapping on a filmback, but absent the pins it ain't gonna happen.  The focus has gone completely digital---as Doug says, for better or for worse.

ken  

I don't say different but since the old contacts (pins as you say) already exist there is surely no reason for them to exclude the use of the existing FBs (they can do it deliberately by abandon the order that the body gives to the back for film advancement) but this would be stupid, they create some dissatisfied customers by not linking present with past. Cheers Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr