Sony NEX9 - wild speculation!

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Today Sony presented a really nice mirrorless APS-C camera, the NEX-7. In the MinoltaSony naming scheme 7 means top amateur model, the real top model used to called 9. Dynax 9, Alpha 900. Next year we are rumored to see three full frame models. Probably a to mirrorless (SLT) and a slightly dumbed down model. The third one could be a full frame NEX model.

AFAIK, Sony has confirmed the the NEX-mount is full frame capable. So will we see a NEX 9 with full frame? As essentially all 135 lenses can be attached to the NEX, it would be a real nice alternative for Leitz lens owners, wouldn't it?

What is your take on the speculation?

Best regards
Erik

[douglasf13]

Hi,

Today Sony presented a really nice mirrorless APS-C camera, the NEX-7. In the MinoltaSony naming scheme 7 means top amateur model, the real top model used to called 9. Dynax 9, Alpha 900. Next year we are rumored to see three full frame models. Probably a to mirrorless (SLT) and a slightly dumbed down model. The third one could be a full frame NEX model.

AFAIK, Sony has confirmed the the NEX-mount is full frame capable. So will we see a NEX 9 with full frame? As essentially all 135 lenses can be attached to the NEX, it would be a real nice alternative for Leitz lens owners, wouldn't it?

What is your take on the speculation?

Best regards
Erik

I just can't imagine that Sony would make a 135 NEX that has no native lenses available for it.  It's taking long enough for them to make the NEX aps-c lenses as it is.

[ErikKaffehr]

Yes, that is a good point!

Best regards
Erik

I just can't imagine that Sony would make a 135 NEX that has no native lenses available for it.  It's taking long enough for them to make the NEX aps-c lenses as it is.

[telyt]

AFAIK, Sony has confirmed the the NEX-mount is full frame capable. So will we see a NEX 9 with full frame? As essentially all 135 lenses can be attached to the NEX, it would be a real nice alternative for Leitz lens owners, wouldn't it?

I'd be interested in a camera like this.

[aaykay]

I'd be interested in a camera like this.

Ditto !  If a NEX9 gets released, and if a key set of native NEX FF lenses are available, I will buy it sight unseen.

[Andrew Teakle]

So will we see a NEX 9 with full frame? As essentially all 135 lenses can be attached to the NEX, it would be a real nice alternative for Leitz lens owners, wouldn't it?

I, too, would be very interested in this concept. Having just completed a 6-day backpack trip, several shorter trips earlier in the year, and two longer ones scheduled for next year, all with a 5DII, 7D (for backup), 24-105 and 17-40, as well as a mid-sized Manfrotto tripod, I have been fantasising about a new lightweight system to complement my medium format gear. The NEX-7 sounds extremely interesting, but the idea of a mid-30s MP full frame lightweight body with a selection of pancake (or other very light) prime lenses is making my mouth water.

Exciting times!

Andrew

[Robert55]

I remember [confess] reading on a rumor forum that someone from Sony recently stated they were not 'at present' developing a 36*24 Nex

I'm really curious whether it would really be possible. The Nex mount has a Flange focal distance of 18mm, compared to Leica's about 28 and Eos 46, resulting in light hitting the sensor's wide edges at an extreme angle. IIRC Leica had a lot of trouble correcting for that

{not that I would not want such a camera}

[telyt]

I remember [confess] reading on a rumor forum that someone from Sony recently stated they were not 'at present' developing a 36*24 Nex

I'm really curious whether it would really be possible. The Nex mount has a Flange focal distance of 18mm, compared to Leica's about 28 and Eos 46, resulting in light hitting the sensor's wide edges at an extreme angle. IIRC Leica had a lot of trouble correcting for that

{not that I would not want such a camera}

The flange-to-sensor distance isn't the problem.  The problem is the exit pupil-to-sensor distance.  Any SLR lens that clears a reflex mirror will have a sufficiently long exit pupil-to-sensor distance.

[douglasf13]

I remember [confess] reading on a rumor forum that someone from Sony recently stated they were not 'at present' developing a 36*24 Nex

I'm really curious whether it would really be possible. The Nex mount has a Flange focal distance of 18mm, compared to Leica's about 28 and Eos 46, resulting in light hitting the sensor's wide edges at an extreme angle. IIRC Leica had a lot of trouble correcting for that

{not that I would not want such a camera}

I believe the only limitation may be the electrical contacts in the Nex mount.  Sony would have to rearrange those to fit a 135 sensor in there.  They could certainly built lenses to work with the 18mm registration distance, but who knows how big they'd end up being?

Either way, I just can't imagine Sony would expand to a 135 sensor in their NEX cameras, when all the lenses are designed for aps-c, and they're using the aps-c/Super35 sensor size in everything from the NEX-3 to their highest end HD video cameras in the six figures.  Frankly, the 135 sensor size is a product of legacy lens users for DSLRs, but, since Sony started NEX from the ground up, they have no reason to conform to a legacy format size.  In a sense, NEX cameras ARE fullframe.

[aaykay]

The flange-to-sensor distance isn't the problem.  The problem is the exit pupil-to-sensor distance.  Any SLR lens that clears a reflex mirror will have a sufficiently long exit pupil-to-sensor distance.

The several years old Sony DSC-R1 (with a near APS-C sensor), had the rear element of the lens positioned just 2.1mm (that is millimeters !) from the sensor plane.  Absolutely no vignetting or any other optical aberrations whatsoever.

[aaykay]

I remember [confess] reading on a rumor forum that someone from Sony recently stated they were not 'at present' developing a 36*24 Nex

The site (sonyalpharumors.com) that got all of the information about these Sony cameras absolutely right (including the 24MP APS-C sensor info by October, 2010), are stating (quoting from the same reliable Sony sources) that there would be 3 Full-frame cameras to be announced in 2012. 

I think 2 SLR/SLT Full-frames make sense but the 3rd one is not going to be an SLT/SLR at all and is going to be a NEX.

[pegelli]

Don't know if it would happen
Would very much like for it to happen if they can continue on the right track with regard to improving corner performance of the sensor with WA lenses like the have shown with the Nex 3C. That would eliminate the crop factor of my current Leica M lenses and open up other interesting WA rangefinder options. It won't be a M9 but a nice and cheaper substitute.

[douglasf13]

The several years old Sony DSC-R1 (with a near APS-C sensor), had the rear element of the lens positioned just 2.1mm (that is millimeters !) from the sensor plane.  Absolutely no vignetting or any other optical aberrations whatsoever.

So does the X100, but, those are fixed lens cameras that have more design leeway.

[AllMankind]

AFAIK, Sony has confirmed the the NEX-mount is full frame capable. So will we see a NEX 9 with full frame? As essentially all 135 lenses can be attached to the NEX, it would be a real nice alternative for Leitz lens owners, wouldn't it?

AFAIK Sony has never stated that the NEX E mount was FF capable.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Sony will not make a FF NEX as no E mount lens can cover FF.  Sony would have to come out with a new line of FF E mount lenses, and right now Sony has their hands full just meeting the demands of users for APS E mount lenses and would not need the additional grief of a FF NEX E mount.

BUT...  a while back there was a rumor of an NEX-7 styled Alpha mount camera floating around.  At first I just dismissed the rumor as silly.  Then when I thought about it, yes, it would make sense if Sony put a FF sensor into such a camera.  But it would be an Alpha camera, not NEX.

The new LA-EA2 would give the best of both worlds on such an Alpha body.

[douglasf13]

AFAIK Sony has never stated that the NEX E mount was FF capable.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Sony will not make a FF NEX as no E mount lens can cover FF.  Sony would have to come out with a new line of FF E mount lenses, and right now Sony has their hands full just meeting the demands of users for APS E mount lenses and would not need the additional grief of a FF NEX E mount.

BUT...  a while back there was a rumor of an NEX-7 styled Alpha mount camera floating around.  At first I just dismissed the rumor as silly.  Then when I thought about it, yes, it would make sense if Sony put a FF sensor into such a camera.  But it would be an Alpha camera, not NEX.

The new LA-EA2 would give the best of both worlds on such an Alpha body.

Interesting point, although I'm not sure how Sony could call it an Alpha body if it had an E-mount for the LA-EA2.  If they put a regular A mount on the camera, then the body would still have the same thickness issues that current Alpha cameras have.  Eventually, once PDAF on-sensor becomes viable, A mount cameras won't have a mirror either, but I think Sony will have to stick with two separate lines for a while if they want to still use a 135 sensor.

[Martin1961]

I am wondering at what pace Sony will upgrade its current E-Lens set up to match the new 20+ sensor of the Nex 7.
I know a new 1.8 50mm OSS has arrived and the new Zeiss 24mm is about to. But the rest of their current E-lens set up is hmmmmm....(room for improvement, to put it mildly  ) If they wait to long they basicly are transforming any Nex body to a digital platform for any other lens brand on the market.
I can't imagine this to be the main goal of Sony's R & D department, right? You should think they MUST come out with a series of very good lenses.
Exciting times are ahead of any Nex user.

edit:typo

[ErikKaffehr]

+1

Erik

I am wondering at what pace Sony will upgrade its current E-Lens set up to match the new 20+ sensor of the Nex 7.
I know a new 1.8 50mm OSS has arrived and the new Zeiss 24mm is about to. But the rest of their current E-lens set up is hmmmmm....(room for improvement, to put it mildly  ) If they wait to long they basicly are transforming any Nex body to a digital platform for any other lens brand on the market.
I can't imagine this to be the main goal of Sony's R & D department, right? You should think they MUST come out with a series of very good lenses.
Exciting times are ahead of any Nex user.

edit:typo

[fotometria gr]

Interesting point, although I'm not sure how Sony could call it an Alpha body if it had an E-mount for the LA-EA2.  If they put a regular A mount on the camera, then the body would still have the same thickness issues that current Alpha cameras have.  Eventually, once PDAF on-sensor becomes viable, A mount cameras won't have a mirror either, but I think Sony will have to stick with two separate lines for a while if they want to still use a 135 sensor.

The 24mpx sensor is a video dedicated sensor that is capable of stills, but of worst stills quality than the 16.2mpx sensor. This is due to the enhanced AAfilter that is needed for video, as well as, the too small pixel size that causes more noise on the recorded signal and hence worst DR or "pixel definition" in general. In return 24mpx is just perfect for video because the width allows exactly 3 pixels to be used for each of the 1920 analysis and in total 9 pixels exactly to record each of the 1080x1920 info! This should improve sharpness because there is no interpolation to extract the 1080x1920 signal, but it will improve color as well because there is a mixture of 9 R, G and B poled pixels (plenty), to accurately create color info!!! If you also take in mind that APS-c is the correct size for "cinema feeling" because it has the same DOF as 35mm filming (35mm film is shot vertically in cinema, to 22-24mm width) you can easily conclude the following: 1. Sony's intention with the NEX system, is to provide an easy to use but capable system to the "hybrid" market, that will enhance the company's already leading video presence. 2. There is not a logic of "upgrade" for Sony in the series from NEX-5 to NEX-7, but rather a "photo emphasis" vs. "video emphasis" choice for the customer.
 Hence, since FF is useless for video due to the "ultra shallow DOF", its out of the question for the NEX system, although it can definitely be done (maybe the Sony DSLR lens adapter is needed). All the above  of course, apply to the a55 vs. a77 market positioning and explains why they rejected the pentaprism from the a77 (its useless for video) or why they don't use video on their FF DSLRs. www.fotometria.gr    

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Well possible that the average customer is less concerned about lens quality than the readers of these forums. Also I don't think Sony minds selling NEX-bodies for owners of other lenses.

On the other hand, a full frame NEX-9 would not work well with Leica M-lenses. Would be great with a lot of fine old lenses that don't work on todays DSLRs.

Best regards
Erik

+1

and lets hope they come out with this lenses very soon.

[memento]

The 24mpx sensor is a video dedicated sensor that is capable of stills, but of worst stills quality than the 16.2mpx sensor. This is due to the enhanced AAfilter that is needed for video, as well as, the too small pixel size that causes more noise on the recorded signal and hence worst DR or "pixel definition" in general.

This all sounds likely in theory. But in practice, the first available image samples of the NEX-7 suggest quite the contrary, don't they? In his first report here on Luminous Landscape, there is even mention of how *weak* the AA filter seems to be on this camera, and how good fine detail and texture is rendered by it. There is a bit of a penalty regarding high ISO, but as the quality at lower ISO seems to be so excellent, you could just argue that there are enough photographers who will really like that sensor as it is now: Offering so superior resolution at lower to mid ISO.

Regarding FF sensor, I recall that some Sony rep has once said that it would be possible with the NEX mount. However, I do not know if that was a really technically informed source. Of course a FF NEX body would be very nice. I rather doubt it will be like this in the near future. Rather they will have a traditional A900 SLR replacement for the Alpha mount system, and/or one with SLT mirror in it.

Thomas