How do you define the deliverable to the client

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

Sounds like a complicated question but I am sure we all faced this issue before and its as simple as follows: How do I tell my hotel client (and any others for that matter) that for every facility picture (ex: lobby or bedroom) they order they get one picture. Hence, they don't get a collection of images for the same room to pick from. The reason for that is that for each angle the furniture must be moved around and lighting must be adjusted and finally the picture must be edited. This is almost like doing the work of multiple pictures for the price of one. And since they are already involved in the selection process at the planning stage when we take snapshots they should expect this because they know the best angle was chosen after going through a professional selection process.

I guess I can state what I want to say but not in a brief and very clear way. This is like the retouching wording topic we had few weeks ago. How would you word this? Any help in wording would be much appreciated.

Abdulrahman

[GlennMorimoto]

Perhaps you can further define your shots by saying one view or one angle or one set-up of whatever room...I hope this helps at all.

[Kirk Gittings]

Marketing is just a very frustrating long term educational effort with clueless clients. The other day I gave an estimate to a manufacturer for 20 images of their facilities.

Him-"how many do I get to pick from?". Me-"twenty". "No shit" he says "the other guy is going to shoot 700 (!) in half a day and let me pick 100". I say-"with all due respect, he doesn't know what he is doing. There are not anywhere close to 700 or even 100 good images of this building. He is talking snapshots. There are however about 20 good views that will show your facilities off really well and will make you website look really professional. It will take about a long day and the images will be perfect for your marketing purposes."

He picked the other guy.

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

Marketing is just a very frustrating long term educational effort with clueless clients. The other day I gave an estimate to a manufacturer for 20 images of their facilities.

Him-"how many do I get to pick from?". Me-"twenty". "No shit" he says "the other guy is going to shoot 700 (!) in half a day and let me pick 100". I say-"with all due respect, he doesn't know what he is doing. There are not anywhere close to 700 or even 100 good images of this building. He is talking snapshots. There are however about 20 good views that will show your facilities off really well and will make you website look really professional. It will take about a long day and the images will be perfect for your marketing purposes."

He picked the other guy.

lol!

please don't take it wrong it happens to all of us

I found a good way to address this. The sequence:

1. Acknowledge the fact "absolutely I can do that for you too and you pick the pictures you like
2. Define this approach "those are snapshots quick and easy and more profitable in the short term until I roughen my name"
3. Identify the weakness "quick snap shots come with no attention to detail and the space is never arranged or shot with the most ideal light/time of the day"
4. Show proof/samples "here is a space that was snapshot and a space that was rearranged and photographed professionally" Ashley has a wealth of those
5. Make a stance "so you see why now I don't do this kind of work it's not good for me in the long run and never good for the client, period"

The key to success is to be confident and give the client a sense that you would never weaver on your position but yet respect his decision whatever it is. It works most of the time from my experience.

Back to the main question, international hotels are really not a problem is this regard, they understand this and in fact require it. I am just looking wording to make it official in my pricing chart and to have it handy when a clueless local sales and marketing director objects.

[Kirk Gittings]

I know I could have handled it better, but the 700 number really through me for a loop. I also knew at that moment that there was such a huge gap between the estimates of the other photographer and me that there was no way in hell I was going to do it. I had to make my point and walk away-maybe a negative experience like this will bring him my way next time.

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

I know I could have handled it better, but the 700 number really through me for a loop. I also knew at that moment that there was such a huge gap between the estimates of the other photographer and me that there was no way in hell I was going to do it. I had to make my point and walk away-maybe a negative experience like this will bring him my way next time.

if there is a big price gap like this, then you are right, its not salvageable

[aaronleitz]

Back to the main question, international hotels are really not a problem is this regard, they understand this and in fact require it. I am just looking wording to make it official in my pricing chart and to have it handy when a clueless local sales and marketing director objects.

I don't think this is an issue that can be solved with the right wording in a document. Some clients are going to need you to verbally explain it to them. Just walk them through the process:  "This is how I work...."

I just finished a shoot for a hotel this week. The estimate read something like this: "2 images of renovated King Room, 1 image of renovated Double Double Room, 1 image of existing hall corridor....."

So you could maybe make your price sheet wording very specific as a "per image" instead of "per room."

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

I don't think this is an issue that can be solved with the right wording in a document. Some clients are going to need you to verbally explain it to them. Just walk them through the process:  "This is how I work...."

I just finished a shoot for a hotel this week. The estimate read something like this: "2 images of renovated King Room, 1 image of renovated Double Double Room, 1 image of existing hall corridor....."

So you could maybe make your price sheet wording very specific as a "per image" instead of "per room."

I understand what you are saying and need to clarify something. A verbal discussion is a must, and I would like to have a recorded summary of that discussion included in the quote. That is what I am after.

[michaelnotar]

sometimes its a package...ie for realtors.. of x to x number of photos. i never mention how many i take, its irrelevent.

for weddings i say 20-30 images/hr. my contract has terms that i am allowed artistic freedom to crop, adjust color/brightness, edit images. its about learning how to spin it. dont say i am only going to show you x number of images, i say the client will only recieve the photographer's best work. a few lines later i put out takes will not be shown nor are included in our fees.

for commercial projects, i quote all projects for x number of finished shots. again number out shots taken is irrelevent. they are lighting tests any ways.

i feel your pain for stupid clients like that who want more shots that are crap. do you really want that client...?

[GlennMorimoto]

@Kirk, this guy is not even worth wasting anymore of your precious time or energy thinking or writing about.  He's a totally mislead bargain hunter trying to take advantage of the current economy.  Who knows if the other supposed photographer even exists.  I've been getting requests from people like him too and following our phone conversations outlining the details and submitting my proposal I never get any response, not even an email telling me to forget about it, or that my price is totally out of their budget, they didn't like my voice, nothing, nadda, no response...they just disappear.  Give my best to Jim on your next shoot!

[ChristopherBarrett]

I'm lucky in that most of my clients know how many shots they're looking for, they know we can do, say, 4-5 interiors in a day so the estimates are pretty easy.  Then again, I pretty much work with the same group of clients all the time.  I have had to explain my process a couple times when in your situation... with new clients.

I'll usually say that we do fewer shots in a day so that we can take the time to light them, organize furniture / props and make sure that we're getting the best image possible.  I never get pushback after that.  New clients are often hiring me based up my portfolio and having already viewed those images, it's not hard for them to realize that none of my photographs were the lucky 1 out of 100 shot.

To close the conversation I tell them that we refer to that method of shooting as "spray and pray."

This whole process of education should leave the client with greater respect for you than they had in the beginning.  If it doesn't, they're probably not someone you really want to work with.

CB

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

@Kirk, this guy is not even worth wasting anymore of your precious time or energy thinking or writing about.  He's a totally mislead bargain hunter trying to take advantage of the current economy.  Who knows if the other supposed photographer even exists.  I've been getting requests from people like him too and following our phone conversations outlining the details and submitting my proposal I never get any response, not even an email telling me to forget about it, or that my price is totally out of their budget, they didn't like my voice, nothing, nadda, no response...they just disappear.  Give my best to Jim on your next shoot!

Glenn,

What photography do you do the most, do you face this problem in certain fields more than others?

I am really surprised of this. How common is this?

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

I'm lucky in that most of my clients know how many shots they're looking for, they know we can do, say, 4-5 interiors in a day so the estimates are pretty easy.  Then again, I pretty much work with the same group of clients all the time.  I have had to explain my process a couple times when in your situation... with new clients.

I'll usually say that we do fewer shots in a day so that we can take the time to light them, organize furniture / props and make sure that we're getting the best image possible.  I never get pushback after that.  New clients are often hiring me based up my portfolio and having already viewed those images, it's not hard for them to realize that none of my photographs were the lucky 1 out of 100 shot.

To close the conversation I tell them that we refer to that method of shooting as "spray and pray."

lol, that's a good one

This whole process of education should leave the client with greater respect for you than they had in the beginning.  If it doesn't, they're probably not someone you really want to work with.

CB

That's true. What do you do, however, when the client asks for more pictures after the photography was completed? You show him a description of this policy along with the quote, so he doesn't go "well everybody gives me a collection of pictures".

[Harold Clark]

@Kirk, this guy is not even worth wasting anymore of your precious time or energy thinking or writing about.  He's a totally mislead bargain hunter trying to take advantage of the current economy.  Who knows if the other supposed photographer even exists.  I've been getting requests from people like him too and following our phone conversations outlining the details and submitting my proposal I never get any response, not even an email telling me to forget about it, or that my price is totally out of their budget, they didn't like my voice, nothing, nadda, no response...they just disappear.  Give my best to Jim on your next shoot!

I quoted pricing quite a while ago for a manufacturer of building materials. I heard nothing further, then had a call from them the other day. Apparently an employee knew " someone with a camera " who did the shoot. Not one image was useable apparently. After going the cheap route they now realize they have to spend some money to get the quality they need. Sometimes this happens, but many times they don't know good from bad and continue to buy only on price.

[michaelnotar]

I love with that happens, I have done atleast 2 shoots where they had an employee/friend/kid take the shots and they had to save them themselves, then the ad agency had to save them again to make them usable for print.

I explain it spray and pray vs, a sniper. One shot one kill. Sounds a bit more professional.

[GlennMorimoto]

Abdulrahman, I do a lot of architectural and corporate shooting.  The last couple of years has been very little architecture and mostly executive portraits on location and most recently a lot of PR photography.  The non-return of calls and/or emails are almost 100% corporate, small business and PR type of clients who contact me after viewing my website.  Only on one or two occasions in the last year or so have I had an architecture inquiry not return my calls or emails after sending a proposal.  That said, I've noticed it's the smaller companies that I've never heard of that are like that.  All of the major big companies I've dealt with are very professional and understand the value of top notch photography.

As mentioned by someone else, I too have lost assignments to the dreaded "friend with a camera" or employee with a camera, but I haven't any idea of the outcome...as hard as it is, I TRY not to get depressed and move on trying to find the "good" gigs...but it's HARD not to take it personally, even when I know it's just business  

[GlennMorimoto]

I also meant to say that a lot of this non-return call stuff is people that haven't had professional photography and are trying to find out how much their project would cost to have photographed, then they find out that they don't have a budget even close and had no idea what the cost would be, then are either embarrassed to admit it or simply decide to let the employee or friend do it, or not do anything.   Sorry, now we can go back to the original post

[Abdulrahman Aljabri]

Sorry, now we can go back to the original post

At this point I have written a short three line paragraph clearly stating that one picture (option) is for provided for each picture ordered.

[markd61]

I'm coming a little late to this party but it is a great thread with a  number of great insights.

As for Abdulrahman's original query, I note that architectural projects are unique and the clients are unique and thus a consultation is necessary to get a clear understanding of both sides' needs. I say that we can quote by job and by image depending on client need.

What I am trying to do is get to the talking stage with the client. Then I can get an idea about their budget and the scope of the project.THEN it all goes into the contract.

Like many others here I have noted an increase in the number of inexperienced "clients". This (IMO) stems from the DIY approach of small businesses used to bootstrapping everything. Thus you get a business owner who has an idea that the job should be  "about an hour at most maybe a coupla hundred bucks."
I have been able to smell those guys out pretty fast and I frequently don't go into explanation mode. I just say "I am booked for the next six weeks, is late November good?" I know they are thinking that I would just put down the phone and poodle out to their place (an hours drive away) and snap off a few but now they know I am popular and too busy for them right now. If they call back they know I am busy and then they hear the price and realize "this guy has a lot of clients paying these prices, he must be worth it."

At least that is what i like to think.

I always hate myself in the morning when I take one of them when I am really slow.

[mediumcool]

I just say "I am booked for the next six weeks, is late November good?" I know they are thinking that I would just put down the phone and poodle out to their place (an hours drive away) and snap off a few but now they know I am popular and too busy for them right now. If they call back they know I am busy and then they hear the price and realize "this guy has a lot of clients paying these prices, he must be worth it."

Your tale reminds me of a true story told by a lecturer (he said it was true) when I studied marketing many years ago: a restaurant in Sydney (Aust) opened with a bit of fuss, then proceeded to tell all who rang to book that they were booked out for [insert time span]; presumably walk-ins and functions were catered for. Something like four weeks, as I recall.