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Author Topic: MAC OSx Lion and printers  (Read 50438 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2011, 03:30:26 pm »

Yes, the current Mac version of the LFP is missing some functionality the older Windows XP version had, but I forget exactly what, as I no longer have it. I recall asking Epson last year whether they would be added in an update and they said "no".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2011, 03:46:16 pm »

I find it interested that you characterize Apple has given plenty of "Warning" that Rosetta is going away, when no one here has been able to find any official Apple announcement that it will be going away at all.

Just because it isn't common knowledge to those that use macs doesn't mean Apple hasn't communicated it. Developers have always known Rosetta was a bridge between old and new and would someday no longer be supported and this has been discussed since that time. developers are reminded at every annual developer conference.   Apple has been working on rewriting a huge number of programs and utilities as well, and I believe the original goal was to pull Rosetta by Snow Leopard, but things like installers broke so Rosetta was made optional.

I see a lot of concern about no rosetta... curious as to what software is an issue?   Any software that has been unable to resolve this after six years is probably no longer supported, thus the only way to continue using it is keeping legacy hardware/operating systems going.  Nothing new about that, just part of the evolution of hardware and Operating systems. Personally  I can't think of any.  ColorThink 3.0 uses Rosetta but 3.01 beta 24 doesn't.  That's the closest thing I have to a program that might be an issue.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 03:49:40 pm by Wayne Fox »
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tomrock

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2011, 04:07:42 pm »

I don't know if Apple has announced anything about Rosetta, but I got this from Quicken and they seem pretty sure Rosetta is going away:

http://quicken.intuit.com/support/articles/getting-started/upgrading-and-conversion/8207.html
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2011, 04:36:12 pm »

I don't know if Apple has announced anything about Rosetta, but I got this from Quicken and they seem pretty sure Rosetta is going away:

http://quicken.intuit.com/support/articles/getting-started/upgrading-and-conversion/8207.html

I see lots of third party predictions about Apple.  I have trouble figuring out which announcements are official and can be relied upon, and which are merely speculation.  I even remember times when Apple went out of their way to delay a product due to annoyance over of an unauthorized third-party announcement.

Do you have a list of other companies (aside from Intuit which you have already mentioned) that are authorized by Apple to make definitive statements about future Apple products?

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na goodman

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2011, 04:54:23 pm »

As has been stated Epson installer's use Rosetta. Xrite was still selling i1Match software up until a very short time ago and that uses Rosetta. Those are just a few but I'm sure there are plenty of other apps that use it. I'm just wondering how hard it would be to leave it as an optional install the way it was with Snow Leopard.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2011, 05:18:31 pm »

Just because it isn't common knowledge to those that use macs doesn't mean Apple hasn't communicated it. Developers have always known Rosetta was a bridge between old and new and would someday no longer be supported and this has been discussed since that time. developers are reminded at every annual developer conference.   ...........

I see a lot of concern about no rosetta... curious as to what software is an issue?  

You're right. I'm not a software developer but people I've been assisting are, have known this for a long time, and been working feverishly to deal with it. Not a piece of cake may I add.

There's probably more problematic software out there than any one of us may realize. In fact just for example, XRite's ColorShop X, a very neat little application that shipped with their discontinued Pulse Elite profiling system does not even work on Snow Leopard, and X-Rite is another one of these companies that leaves their customers using legacy products high and dry after a rather short period of unplanned (read: chaotic) obsolescence. Some of this behaviour should really be illegal, but it isn't, so we have to deal with it. Keeping legacy hardware around to use perfectly good things that morons chose to render obsolete is one solution.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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tomrock

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2011, 08:28:13 am »

Do you have a list of other companies (aside from Intuit which you have already mentioned) that are authorized by Apple to make definitive statements about future Apple products?


No. As I said, I know of nothing official from Apple.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2011, 10:30:47 am »

No. As I said, I know of nothing official from Apple.

Would you say that the lack of official announcement suggests that Apple Is, or Is Not the type of supplier a business shoudl rely on?


You may wish to consider Apple's treatment of the professional video market in determining your answer.


You don't need to consider Apple's requirement that one has to move to Lion in order to continue to use Apple's cloud sync services, as these services are primarily aimed at consumers.  (Mobile Me sync services are being replaced by iCloud sync services, which requires Lion).




By the way, I'm not saying the Mac is good or bad.  In fact, I love the Mac platform.  The point I am trying to make is that Apple is aiming for the mass market (which Apple has every right to do).  Apple's policies make it hard for a business to justify investing in, or relying on Apple products. 


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Wayne Fox

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2011, 06:08:33 pm »

  Apple's policies make it hard for a business to justify investing in, or relying on Apple products. 

Not sure I understand that last statement ... isn't this the nature of the game ... what makes Apple unique here?  As an OS and software evolve, you adapt.  Sometimes what seems worse turns out to be better.

I don't think Lion or FCP is going to kill anyones business ... FCP X is far better than the early pundits (many of which don't even use FCP) give it credit for.  Since apple will sell 100's times more copies it will actually make money on the software and thus can justify spending money to improve it, unlike FCP which was only being used extensively by about 10,000 users and was a money pit for Apple to keep improving.
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kers

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2011, 07:06:23 pm »

I may be wrong - it's so complicated with so many variants and so much stuff out there, but I have an impression that on the whole, Microsoft has been much better on backward compatibility than Apple. If Apple Computer keeps pulling this kind of stuff, maybe there is a Windows future for many of us. It would be unfortunate. Having recently migrated from Windows to Mac and enjoying the experience, I would move back if it became more practical to do so.

I think- as an all time Apple user- that is very true.
Apple always was a relatively small computer company and still thinks it is small, although it is at this moment bigger than Microsoft .
While Microsoft sees there will be a loss of credibility ( and money) not supporting older architectures Apple seems to think - we do not need you anymore - because we found millions of other costumers.
They made radical changes in the past ( os9 to osX for one)- but that is what you can do when you are small. With FCP-X - and the now with Rosetta they are showing there lack of support to there old costumers, while there heads are in the iClouds trying to gain money from the information these costumers put in it. ( following Gooooogle trying not to be evil)
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Pieter Kers
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2011, 07:08:19 pm »

Not sure I understand that last statement ... isn't this the nature of the game ... what makes Apple unique here?  As an OS and software evolve, you adapt.  Sometimes what seems worse turns out to be better.

I don't think Lion or FCP is going to kill anyones business ... FCP X is far better than the early pundits (many of which don't even use FCP) give it credit for.  Since apple will sell 100's times more copies it will actually make money on the software and thus can justify spending money to improve it, unlike FCP which was only being used extensively by about 10,000 users and was a money pit for Apple to keep improving.

It's not an issue with change, it's an issue with compatibility.

Every year both Canon and Nikon come out with new camera bodies and lenses.  They work very hard to make maintain compatibility with existing gear.   Both Canon and Nikon are in the business to make money.  They believe that they can make more money in the long term by offering compatibility.  If they announced a body that was incompatible with old lenses, people would think twice before abandoning their old lenses to upgrade.



The problem with killing Rosetta is that you are tying the operating system upgrade to many other upgrades, both hardware and software.  There are printers that will cease to work, Color calibration systems that will cease to work,  and many software packages.  For some of these packages, there are no easy alternatives.  You are no longer asking people to invest a mere $29 for an upgrade, you are asking them to invest a lot more, perhaps thousands of dollars in some cases.

Some claim that no one is forced to upgrade, but this isn't quite true.   As a business grows, I may want to add an additional workstation.  If that workstation is a Mac, I will be forced to run Lion.  If a 4 year old Mac workstation dies, Apple will not sell parts to repair it.  Again I will be forced to buy a new Mac.  Any Mac released after Lion ships will likely not be compatible with Snow Leopard.  If I want to continue to use Apple's cloud sync services, I will be forced to upgrade to Lion.   It turns out that there are all sorts of situations where Apple forces an upgrade.

As to Final Cut Pro, the question is not whether or not the new program is a better long term choice.  The question is what are people going to do in the mean time?   There is no question that the new program is missing functionality found in the old.  If you have been working on a project, and need to add another person to the team, you are out of luck.  The old version is no longer available, and the new version is incompatible.   If you have a long term project that you have been developing in Final Cut, you are out of luck.

If you do decide to switch to the new program, you need to retrain your operators, the new program works nothing like the old.  In today's economy, now might not be the best time to pull people off paying projects and spend time and money on training them on a new program.

By the way, there is no guarantee that the new program will ever regain some of the missing functionality.  Apple has aimed the new program at prosumers.  Features that are only needed by professionals may never be reimplemented.


I guess the bottom line is that as a business owner, I believe that I have a better feel than Apple for the ebb and flow of my business.  I think I am in a better position of deciding when (and if) to transition to various new technologies.  It is not helpful for Apple to force decisions on me.


I am not arguing that there was a business case for Apple to make the Final Cut transition.  I am just pointing out that Apple's way of handling these transitions suggests that Apple computers & software may be a bad choice for businesses.   Keep in mind that business are but a small percentage of Apple's sales, by your logic we should expect them to abandon business users in order to concentrate on the millions of consumers.


What makes Apple unique is that they seem to go out of their way to avoid compatibility.  Other companies go out of their way to ensure compatibility.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2011, 08:36:00 pm »

Fortunately I have a copy of Parallels on my MacBook Pro and it hosts Windows 7 Virtual Machine. This will soon come in useful for some work I'm about to be doing, because the version of Excel that Microsoft makes for Mac is missing important features - such as the Analysis Tool Pak, available in the Windows version. This is a necessary toolset for a range of routine analytic exercises, so those who need it must buy Excel for Adults and install it in Windows. It's indeed nice that Mac allows us this flexibility, so we can pick and chose between the best of both worlds. But this is just another little example of where Apple and Microsoft have contented themselves to make-do with prosumer software for the Mac, while the heavy-duty functions need to be triggered under Windows. One wonders why. Is there something about Mac users that make them have less professional needs than Windows users?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2011, 10:05:32 pm »

It's indeed nice that Mac allows us this flexibility, so we can pick and chose between the best of both worlds.

I have to disagree with you slightly, Mark.  Mac doesn't allow that at all.  Parallels isn't produced by Apple (it's produced and licensed by Parallels) and Windows' licence (provided by Microsoft) is what allows you to run it on a Mac, whereas OS X's licence (provided by Apple) is what doesn't allow you to run OS X on a PC.

Virtualisation tools exist on the PC that could quite easily run OS X if not for Apple prohibiting it in their licensing terms.

Even if we take BootCamp into consideration, it is still the less restrictive licensing of Windows that effectively allows the flexibility and not the Mac hardware or the Apple operating system.

As to Excel for Adults on a Mac?  Well, here's a snapshot from December 2009:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/01/windows-7-growing-faster-than-vista-overtakes-mac-os.ars

And here's a snapshot from more recently (May 2011):

http://www.itsabhik.com/news/windows-7-joins-the-party.html

If anything, Windows is a tiny, tiny fraction more than it was in December 2009, but it's close enough to call it even.  I'm sure that Microsoft could drop support for OS X and not miss the revenue (particularly given the frequently changing environment that is OS X and the costs associated with continued development), but they presumably have determined that it's profitable in some way.

Outside of the design world (photography, et al.), parts of education, and a few tiny fractions of the home market, OS X is only less trivial in numbers than Linux, a comment that will no doubt upset a lot of people on these forums, but it's a fact.  Indeed, it's a very hard and significant fact that should easily answer every person who ever asks, "Why isn't Photoshop available for Linux" or "Why don't printer vendors make drivers for Linux" (they do, in some cases, but it's been a growing trend that doesn't encompass all of the vendors) and so on.

This isn't a reflection of which is better, friendlier, more stable, more fun, less this or more that or anything except market share, in which case the differences are actually an order of magnitude - when you're discussing percentages, that's pretty significant :-)

Personally, I hope that Apple does not abandon the personal computer/workstation/professional user market - competition is a wonderful thing and Apple has brought many excellent contributions to the market.  So, even though I'm a Windows guy and not a Mac guy (but I use Macs at work alongside Windows every day), I'd see it as a huge negative to lose Apple/OS X from this segment of the market (just as I would see losing Linux as a downside, but less so).

At any rate, I would expect that printer vendors will provide driver updates in a pretty reasonable time after the release of Lion.  I'd bet on current models receiving priority, then progressed in reverse by release date/model currency, as makes sense.  Software such as Epson's LFP Remote Panel relied on Rosetta for the installer - not for the application itself.  Once Lion is released, you might expect some official comment to be available from the 3 main vendors - relatively few comments are ever made regarding unreleased software or operating systems, particularly when the release is outside of the control of those vendors and/or covered under various agreements with Apple, Microsoft, etc., and Apple is infamous for not giving advanced notice of, well, much at all :-)
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Phil Brown

Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2011, 10:31:07 pm »

Thanks for clarifying that Phil, and indeed very interesting data on the relative positioning of the operating systems. On a world-wide basis for all uses I'm not surprised, but I suspect that if those figures were parsed to include only the photography/graphics arts markets we'd find that between OSX and Windows its probably quite close to 50:50.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2011, 10:39:21 pm »

I absolutely agree, Mark.  In fact, I'd say it's not only closer to that level but moving in favour of OS X at the moment - it's just difficult to gain hard figures of such things.  Most players who track it in that way don't share those numbers publically.

Ironically, the availability of Windows on the Mac platform (be it Parallels or BootCamp) has apparently contributed to performance of OS X (stable world-wide and growing in the arts/graphics sector), based on admittedly anecdotal evidence (but enough of it, from the right people, to convince me - plus it just makes sense :-)
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Phil Brown

mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2011, 11:00:28 pm »

Fortunately I have a copy of Parallels on my MacBook Pro and it hosts Windows 7 Virtual Machine. This will soon come in useful for some work I'm about to be doing, because the version of Excel that Microsoft makes for Mac is missing important features - such as the Analysis Tool Pak, available in the Windows version. This is a necessary toolset for a range of routine analytic exercises, so those who need it must buy Excel for Adults and install it in Windows. It's indeed nice that Mac allows us this flexibility, so we can pick and chose between the best of both worlds. But this is just another little example of where Apple and Microsoft have contented themselves to make-do with prosumer software for the Mac, while the heavy-duty functions need to be triggered under Windows. One wonders why. Is there something about Mac users that make them have less professional needs than Windows users?

It's not a matter that Mac users have less of a professional need, it's that the majority of all users (Windows and Mac) don't have professional needs.  Most users use a computer for email, web surfing, and some basic document preparation and/or basic spreadsheets.  Usually there's one or two other simple apps (photo management, checkbook tracking, etc.).    Meet these simple needs and you meet the needs the vast majority of users.

Apple is racing to capture this market.  They believe that these users don't even need a full featured computer.   Apple can almost meet the above listed needs with their iPad,.  You can bet that in another year or two the iPad will more than meet the needs of 90% of the market.   The Mac will transform into being just a larger iPad.

Excel may be a spectacular program, but the vast majority of Excel users have no need (or understanding) of 95% of Excel's features.  Most user's don't know how to use 95% of word.  Even PhotoShop experts are not familiar with all of PhotoShop.  Apple's iPad has basic programs that meet these needs, and are much easier to use.

Rather than try to win customers with more features, Apple is trying to win customers with ease of use.  They have a big lead an  Apple will soon own 90% of the market.  People will use iOS devices and not need a computer.

You and I are advanced users, we need and use features, we don't need a simple interface.  We are in the minority.   Apple is moving to the mass market, and we need to be prepared to find an alternative.

Take a look at the car market.  A manual transmission offers more options, but is harder to use.  An automatic transmission is good enough for 95% of the market, and much easier to use.   Many cars are no longer available with a manual transmission.
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John.Murray

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2011, 12:02:41 am »

They believe that these users don't even need a full featured computer.   Apple can almost meet the above listed needs with their iPad,.  You can bet that in another year or two the iPad will more than meet the needs of 90% of the market.   The Mac will transform into being just a larger iPad.

I couldn't agree less!  I appreciate your opinions, but they are simply based on speculation.  Apple is working *hard* to capture developers, the tools available on the Mac platform are quite impressive.  In addition - they are extending the Mac platform via Lion by embracing an entirely new class of users - those relying on mobile devices.  Where was this market 5 years ago?

You seem insist on asserting that everyone is replacing their computers with devices running Ios - i have yet to meet this user (I'm an IT professional - I talk to a *lot* of users....).

Case in point, Apple's AV Foundation.  A lot of people are sneering at this because Apple chose to debut it on devices running Ios before making it available on Mac Desktops.  What gets left unsaid is that this is a true 64bit implementation of Quicktime and serves as the foundation of FCP-X. I know lot's of "pros" (that term with the utmost respect) are outraged at the lack of backword support / 3rd party tools - but it's a *new* platform that just happens to embrace both OS X *and* Ios.  Change is *hard*.  I'm running it on a relatively meager Macbook Pro and it's quite impressive handling 5D2 files....  The "pros" are left with Avid and to a lesser extent Premiere, having to transcode using 32-bit Quicktime. (I should let you know I've made my decision regarding a video NLE on a decent machine - it's purely economic -I'll be running Premiere on a 12 core dual Xeon Windows workstation built for 1/2 the cost of a Mac Pro.)  I kinda wonder what the reaction will be when FCP X has native RED support?  It's gonna happen .....

You mention Windows and it's backword compatibilty, and I would agree with you, impressive but also a source of continuing security vulnerablities.  The original 16bit API's that Windows 3.0 were written to are still largely supported - the API's when written had *no* notion of security or trust relationships - Microsoft is doing a magnificent job of continuing to support these at the cost of complexity.  What you didn't mention is that all 16bit Windows apps are no longer supported on 64bit version of Windows.....  Memories tend to be short - remember the outrage when MS came out with Windows XP?  

Microsoft's idea of a mobile device - "make it run Windows, the hardware will catch up".  While a great idea on paper - it just doesn't cut it - mobile devices are inherently touch as Apple has so beautifully demonstrated.  Windows isn't and neither is, for that matter OS X.

Apple *gets* this......  

This isn't about abandoning an existing market as you assert, it's about embracing new ones and the future....
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:43:05 am by John.Murray »
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2011, 12:42:17 am »

I couldn't agree less!  I appreciate your opinions, but they are simply based on speculation.  Apple is working *hard* to capture developers, the tools available on the Mac platform are quite impressive.  In addition - they are extending the Mac platform via Lion by embracing an entirely new class of users - those relying on mobile devices.  Where was this market 5 years ago?

You seem insist on asserting that everyone is replacing their computers with devices running Ios - i have yet to meet this user (I'm an IT professional - I talk to a *lot* of users....).

Case in point, Apple's AV Foundation.  A lot of people are sneering at this because Apple chose to debut in on devices running Ios before making it available on Mac Desktops.  What gets left unsaid is that this is a true 64bit implementation of Quicktime and serves as the foundation of FCP-X. I know lot's of "pros" are outraged at the lack of backword support / 3rd party tools - but it's a *new* platform that just happens to embrace both OS X *and* Ios.  I'm running it on a relatively meager Macbook Pro and it's quite impressive handling 5D2 files....  The "pros" are left with Avid and to a lesser extent Premiere, having to manually transcode using 32-bit Quicktime. (I should let you know I've made my decision regarding a video NLE on a decent machine - it's purely economic -I'll be running Premiere on a 12 core dual Xeon Windows workstation built for 1/2 the cost of a Mac Pro.)

You mention Windows and it's backword compatibilty, and I would agree with you, impressive but also a source of continuing security vulnerablities.  The original 16bit API's that Windows 3.0 were written to are still largely supported - the API's when written had *no* notion of security or trust relationships - Microsoft is doing a magnificent job of continuing to support these at the cost of complexity.  What you didn't mention is that all 16bit Windows apps are no longer supported on 64bit version of Windows.....  Memories tend to be short - remember the outrage when MS came out with Windows XP? 

Microsoft's idea of a mobile device - "make it run Windows, the hardware will catch up".  While a great idea on paper - it just does'nt cut it - mobile devices are inherently touch as Apple has so beautifully demonstrated.  Windows "ain't" and neither is, for that matter OS X.

Apple *gets* this...... 

This isn't about abandoning an existing market as you assert, it's about embracing new ones and the future....

Apple does have quite an impressive development environment.  It needs one because the smarts are in the environment, not the programs.     Apple loves developers, but Apple wants those developers building Apps that neatly fit into Apple's idea of a good system.   For a while it was a violation of the Apple developer agreement to use any other development environment for iOS development.


Yes, I did mention Windows and their backwards compatibility.  You are correct that the original 16bit Windows 3.0 APIs were developed without serious thought to security.  Contrast this to Apple's OS-X PPC APIs.  They were developed much more recently.  Apple's PPC API's were built on a Unix foundation, and are far more secure than the Windows 3.0 APIs.  Yet, somehow Apple doesn't support these APIs while Windows still supports the 3.0 APIs. 

We certainly agree here. Windows provides compatibility, and Apple doesn't.   You seem to be saying that this lack of compatibility is a good thing for the platform, and you may be correct.  My point is that from a business perspective this lack of compatibility dramatically increases the cost of the platform.  This means that from a long term financial perspective, Apple may not be a good choice for a business computer.

If Lion included Rosetta I could upgrade for about $30.  Over time I could slowly upgrade various PPC software as budgets allow.  I might choose to never update some software.  If a particular and seldom used ppc program is meeting my needs, I would rather spend my money on software that gives me new functionality, or perhaps a faster computer.  Without Rosetta, I need to spend hundreds, perhaps thousands, of dollars just to retain existing functionality.  This doesn't include the tens or hundreds of man hours it will take to convert projects to new software systems.  This is time that I could otherwise be billing to clients.


Your claim that Window's mobile platform isn't as good as iOS, isn't relevant.  We are not talking about  allowing PPC code to run on iPads, or other mobile devices.  This code was not designed for that environment, we are talking about allowing OS-X PPC programs like Quicken to run on OS-X computers like an iMac. 


I don't deny that Apple is dedicated to embracing new technologies, I am just pointing out that they also seem to be dedicated to eradicating old technology. 

I am not trying to suggest that this abandonment of old technology is somehow bad or evil, I am just pointing out that it is not a good match for the needs of businesses.


Remember, Apple is a company that should make decisions that are in the best long term interests of Apple.  It appears that Apple is going after the volume market.  This is a reasonable business decision.    However as a small business owner, one should not base a choice of platform on how profitable you think Apple will be.  You should invest in the platform that will be best for your business.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2011, 12:46:21 am »

P.S.

...
You seem insist on asserting that everyone is replacing their computers with devices running Ios - i have yet to meet this user (I'm an IT professional - I talk to a *lot* of users....).
...

I believe that the vast majority of users don't have access to IT professionals.   These users are the market Apple is going after.  The market that you serve and are familiar with is not the market that Apple is interested in.
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John.Murray

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2011, 12:55:24 am »

Sorry - my phone number is on my site - I get calls from regular users all day.  Still have yet to talk to one thats replacing their PC (or Mac) with a mobile device.....  :)

But to respond to your previous post - dead code is dead code isn't it?  I mean, if it isn't being actively developed (as opposed to being relied upon), it's eventually going to die at some point? 

COBOL anybody?
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