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Author Topic: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180  (Read 32431 times)

David Grover / Capture One

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2011, 04:18:17 am »

to David

 ;D you are the best hasseblade representative !!

 i believe the hasseblade will maintain the European quality,because it is hasseblade,the reputation speaks for itself.

My pleasure.   ;D
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David Grover
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gazwas

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2011, 04:18:43 am »

i believe the hasseblade will maintain the European quality,because it is hasseblade,the reputation speaks for itself.

Dangerous words!

No company, especially MF manufacturers should rely on their reputation to sell cameras. Brand should be the least important item on your shopping list.  ;)
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torchiam

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2011, 04:20:29 am »

to cng

i come here to ask the things i do not know and appreciate helps with respect.if you are not ok with it,move to other threads,ask your own questions or reply with something productive.

thank you very much.
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torchiam

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2011, 04:24:37 am »

to gazwas

 :D man ,i know what you are talking about

but the truth is ,you do not want to walk in a restaurant with no customers in there.and when there is a restaurant full of business and people line up out front to wait to get in,you konw they have good food served,right?
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2011, 04:27:51 am »

I never understood this Hasselblad natural color thingy and I'm quite a technically inclined person.
Maybe David could give a technical explanation or a pointer to a tech paper where the solution is explained and not only raved about?

David Grover / Capture One

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2011, 04:43:47 am »

I never understood this Hasselblad natural color thingy and I'm quite a technically inclined person.
Maybe David could give a technical explanation or a pointer to a tech paper where the solution is explained and not only raved about?

Hi Christoph,

That would require me having to write one. ;)

But I agree, we need it and I will try to make it happen.

David

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gazwas

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2011, 05:59:32 am »

but the truth is ,you do not want to walk in a restaurant with no customers in there.and when there is a restaurant full of business and people line up out front to wait to get in,you konw they have good food served,right?

Just as long as everyone waiting is not there just because the person at the front of the line is telling everyone its great!

Everyones tastes and needs are different so never assume because everyone else likes something its the best for you and only a good demo will help. So forget what everyone else uses (most pro's in your market are probably using 5DII, 1DsIII and DX3 anyway) and go with the best fit system.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2011, 06:02:41 am »

Hi Christoph,
That would require me having to write one. ;)
But I agree, we need it and I will try to make it happen.
David

The only article I ever found which got a bit into details about HNCS was this one:
http://press.hasselblad.com/media-library/background-articles/hasselblad-natural-color-solution.aspx

After reading this article, which basically states H was using photographers to create some sort of unified profile I still feel unsatisfied.

Is it just a better generic profile ? H claims that HNCS is not a generic profile.
So - is the real color transformed differently each time depending on image content?
If yes - by which rationale?
If not - what would be the differences to the principle of a generic profile?

Again I feel I have more questions than answers.

Oh - and yes, David - do write something better than the article above ... :P
Because - in the moment HNCS appears to me just as being a cleverly designed generic profile ... but this contradicts the claim stated in the mentioned paper - so I still see a contradicton.

cng

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2011, 09:50:34 am »

i come here to ask the things i do not know and appreciate helps with respect.if you are not ok with it,move to other threads,ask your own questions or reply with something productive.

What are you talking about?  My comment may have been blunt but I thought it was worth pointing out the constant undeserved mindless criticising of Hasselblad purely for having lenses that aren't "Swedish" enough.  It's pointlessly damaging, stupid and borderline racist.

My comment wasn't even directed at you, so I don't know why you seem so offended by it.   ::)

You want some "productive" tips?
– Relevant to your consideration of an IQ180 is another myth spreading recently on the glorious internet that you only get Capture One DB with your new IQ back.  Not true.  You receive a full license for Capture One Pro (at least I did).
– Find good, trustworthy dealer(s) and test these systems out for yourself.  Two reasons:  1. The ergonomics and useability of a system (lens / body / back / software) is more important than how many lp/mm the lenses can resolve.  You will only find this out by testing and shooting with your usual subjects and workflow.  At the risk of being flamed, all these systems are more than good enough.  The human element, less so.  2. You will need a good dealer in the event (and it happens to everyone) something goes belly up – i.e. a good dealer providing excellent backup service to you, and a good dealer with excellent relationships with the manufacturers so that problems can be resolved quickly.
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fredjeang

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2011, 11:15:06 am »

I'm following this thread, in wich there are some pros I respect, and frankly...most of you are teasing in the coffee-corner, no?
It's soon summertime and everybody needs a break.

I hear things like C1 is more professional than Phocus, or about the magic properties of the blad colors etc...

All I know, is that as professionals, we have to resolve. Whatever the camera, software involved and there is nothing such as the holy equipment and never will be.

As professionals, we have to be able to resolve whatever chalenge with any equipment and you know as well as I do that the path, the how, never matters.

IMO, when we start to questioned the equipment, resolution, magic colors, criticizing the naughty Canon's horrible files, C1 being better than Phocus, raw developers that think they are PS, dynamic f.....g range and its mother in law, we are in amateur café discution.

Ok, you're teasing.





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vindixon

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2011, 08:56:36 pm »

Hi Fredjeang,

My professional experience might differ from yours but I have certainly found C1 to be much better than Phocus for my work and I have several backs from both companies. If expressing this is an "amateur cafe discussion" then I do not understand this thread. If I was about to spend more than $ 50 000 on a camera system I would like to know how people who have used it for years have found it. I find most professional reviews of medium format backs useless because while they look at the specs they never test the cameras under real world shooting conditions, pushing the equipment the way we do. Having to deal with not stop freezes and crashes are not the type of problems I like to have to resolve on a photo shoot, I prefer creative problems. The last year I used Hasselblad/Phocus not stop I almost had a nervous breakdown from the continual problems I had, crashes, freezes, rebooting everything, finding that all the files were not developed, having to process everything just so that I could edit in Lightroom...moving to Phase was so great after all that . So maybe there is no holy equipment/software combination out there but some equipment is clearly a lot better than others and that was what I was trying to express.

Thanks,

vincentdixon.com
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fredjeang

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2011, 04:00:04 am »

Vincent,

My post was not aimed to anyone in particular but a kind of reaction to some general ideas that have been regularly sprayed in this forum year after year, like for example that C1 is a "more professional" software than Phocus.

It appears to me perfectly fine and desirable that each photographer had a preference in building a system and particular workflow and feel more orientated in using a particular equipment. Testing gear in personal configuration, trying softwares etc...to find what's-best-for-me is part of equation and there is nothing to discuss about it. Now...the use of "professional"

My experience in photography is 90% assisting, in low and high-end and I do know this: you arrive in the studio and they are computers wich characteristics aren't under your control. Generally underpowered and not updated softwares. The session was normally a Canon's but the boss decided to use a Blad also. There is Phocus and C1, Phocus will be used. Nothing to say. IF there is a crash, we can't say, "hey that's bloody phocus wich is not a good program". We simply have to resolve. In my professional experience, I think that not once that I remember I've heard serious complains about a camera or a particular software except in the forums. People are payed (photographer included) to acheive a goal, regardless of the limitations of the equipment.

We can't come with excuses, cameras-softwares-hardwares complains, or not knowing how to solve an issue. It has to be done. If not, they won't call you back.
I've seen that each time in the past I was barking against an equipment it was mostly because of my lack of mastering it, knowledge issue, not equipment issue.
I did that, we all do it, but I think there is a time with experience that the equipment becomes very very relative if not irrelevant.
I can make mistakes, but I can't not solving my mistakes and point an external reason by any means.
It's like those endless discussions about how bad the 5d2 files are compared to the MF back...I'm not saying that the MF equipment is not "superior" in many aspect of the IQ but again, in my experience, all I see are people choosing the right equipment for the right purpose. If it has to be a 5D2 it will be a 5D2. In the end, not one client cares about that, all they care is about the final image-cost. If it was done with a 1000$ Pentax APS, developped in Silkipix but the imagery is top, it's OK. You will be taken more seriously than shooting brickwalls with a 180 back.(not targeting anyone in particular here but a general idea)

I've never saw a single photographer built his reputation because of the equipment involved, except the workshopers because it is part of their equation, and there are very few equipment on this planet that really make a difference in one's reputation. Nodody knows or cares in cine if this director used an ARRI or a RED or his gran'ma camera. And ARRI and RED are precisely among the very little exceptions where the brand can have a commercial impact. Any file in this digital world will pass by so many softwares and-or hands before the delivery that all those considerations aren't relevant to me. Today, most if not all cameras and systems are capable to deliver great IQ with a great amount of reliability.

I never had a single crash with Phocus except once at home the very first moment I upgraded, re-boot the computer and it was all fine.
C1 is known to had issues when previous versions where installed and they clearly recommend to desinstall previous versions. I didn't have any crash with C1 either but know some people experienced it. So it is not a Phocus exclusive, it is digital imagery in general and the experiences can be very diverse in that aspect.

I realised that many people can be easily impressed by rather primitive softwares specs, a little bit of filters here, a more complete color correction controls there is enough...the fact that C1 is a more complete and "complex" program than Phocus often makes think that it is a more professional software. I don't buy that. It sounds to me a typical amateur statement as I pointed, amateur means in my mind someone how does not earn money with...not someone who is a complete stupid. But it is up to the pro to follow and know the wikenesses of the equipment and been preapared for that.

I spend quite a lot of time in collecting informations about how others have resolved a specific issue. I frankly would prefer to use this time for the fun but in my understanding, it's part of the professional attitude. Every system that I know has wicknesses. I've been complaining on Apple's politics recently about a complex ProRes issue, but in the end I must admit that my complain araised because I was not preapared enough technically. The issue really exists but then my point was irrelevant as a professional. Right or wrong, I just have to deal with it and more importantly, find the way to solve it. At the time I write, I haven't find a satisfactory way to solve the problem, more a DIY solution, but I will because I never give-up.

Testino's team to take an example uses Phocus, and it works, and works perfectly fine. In fact, most of the heavy weights here in Europe use Blad combined with Phocus and another point: it is not rare in the shooting sessions that the PS task is started right live in the session to gain time and money... a raw developper is in the end a simple software but the heavy stuff is PS and I think that if a Phase back is used, C1 should be used, if a blad is used, Phocus should be used; and then, layers, wich is where the heavy work starts.

IMO, if Hasselblad has not filled its Rawdev with zillion options except the srtictly necessaries it is not because they can't but probably they know their market and clients expectations.

Cheers.




 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:25:25 am by fredjeang »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2011, 05:38:13 am »

I have tried both, Phocus and C1 (64 bit) and I have seen crashes with both.
And my system is generally rock solid stable.
(Quad Core Intel, 8 Gigs RAM, Windows 7 64 bit, Quality ASUS Board).

design_freak

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2011, 07:47:39 am »

I have tried both, Phocus and C1 (64 bit) and I have seen crashes with both.
And my system is generally rock solid stable.
(Quad Core Intel, 8 Gigs RAM, Windows 7 64 bit, Quality ASUS Board).
LOL
You have answered your question  ::)
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DF

Erick Boileau

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2011, 12:36:28 pm »

my system is generally rock solid stable.
(Quad Core Intel, 8 Gigs RAM, Windows 7 64 bit, Quality ASUS Board).
  .... windows ?    rock solid ?  ;D
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fredjeang

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2011, 01:35:29 pm »

since windows 7 64 bits I think I need to clean the dust on the Macs Pros in the studio. 
http://www.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/workstations/precision-r5500/pd.aspx?refid=precision-r5500&cs=555&s=biz
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2011, 01:36:06 pm »

  .... windows ?    rock solid ?  ;D
Yes. It is possible.
I have seen many Macs crash - mostly from people trying to proof Macs are the greatest awesomest nerdiest systems evah ...
The most stable system I have ever experienced was a Solaris machine.

fredjeang

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2011, 01:49:05 pm »

Red Hat is also still very present in the cine industry
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design_freak

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2011, 05:57:07 pm »


 i believe the hasseblade will maintain the European quality,because it is hasseblade,the reputation speaks for itself.


It reminds me of a Scandinavian company. Also believed that they are the best, that their position in the market is not threatened. ALSO not endure criticism. The best of the best. Market leader. Today the company is in serious trouble. Speech about the Nokia company. I wish that history is not repeated.
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torchiam

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Re: question of choosing h4d-60 or phase one iq180
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2011, 05:16:25 am »

it is very interesting to me to see what some people trying to prove here

so what i heard here is when some one tell you something is good,something is with good reputation,you people just give a poker face and start to talk about nokia and tell people:yeah,you know they are going to be bad,every good thing eventually is going to be bad,do not hear whatever people tell you,reputation is a lie.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D great!! this feels like reading <Tous les hommers soul motels>

tell you what,according to my experience,reputation speaks most of it.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 09:04:29 am by torchiam »
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