Guide to archival prints.

[Chief]

Hey folks,

I'm currently running an Epson 9880 with original inks and a variety of media. Mostly heavy weight matte papers for posters, inexpensive polyester material for imitation canvas prints and breathing color 800m for decent canvas prints. I've bought plenty of sample rolls of other materials like lyve canvas, chromata canvas and papers like sterling rag and optica one etc. The local market does not dictate better papers and canvas as they just won't spend that little extra even though I'm inexpensive as I run a small one man operation. I've become involved with a number of local camera clubs through my love of amateur photography and would like to attempt to give advice on archival prints etc. Yes this is me attempting to get a few more customers but I also enjoy education fellow amateur photographers.

The problem is I cannot find a good article on why inkjet archival prints, for example a print on optica one with timeless rolled is better than say fuji crystal archive that the local lab prints on. I've been searching all evening and am turning up a blank. I've read articles like http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep9880_2010_04_24.pdf which cover aspects of epson media and have joined and donated to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ but am finding it difficult to analyse the data into a real world scenario i.e. the optica one results vs the crystal archive results. Perhaps it's because I sit up to stupid'o'clock and attempt to research everything whilst my wife and our 3 baby girls are in bed sleeping.

To cut a long story and question short. Could someone perhaps lend a hand and with trying to explain to future and current customers the advantages of printing with me over printing with the local lab.

thanks a million for your time and knowledge in advance.

[dgberg]

I'm slightly confused. Your asking about or have concerns about archival qualities and then your selling 800m canvas? If you listen to the podcast by the president of Breathing Color, 800m is touted as a 9 to 15 month non archival product. "built not intended to last".

"The local market does not dictate better papers and canvas"
 Top of the line archival canvases go from $1 to $1.75 a square foot. (800m is $1 a foot)
Another couple of bucks a print to be able to stand behind what you are selling!
I would think you would want to stand in front of your prospective customer and tell them this is the best canvas money can buy with Archival qualities lasting up to 100+ years.

[Chief]

Dan. Thanks for the input. 

Firstly I am no expert, but would like to become very well versed!

A Link to the podcast would be great. 9 to 15 month sounds awful! Can you clarify what exactly this means? Yes I do understand there is no archival certification but I was led to believe that the lifespan would be almost if not guaranteed so, as long. 

I'm based in Ireland. I purchase my materials from the UK. What I'm trying to say is that where I am based. The market is flooded with cheap, polyester based imitation canvases. Yes I do print them, but I'm the only one locally who has them profiled and varnished. When you attempt to explain to a customer about richer colour or quality of materials or lifespan, their eyes glaze over and they question the decency of your product. I try to explain that in order to get the very best they just have to spend a little more but in recession hit Ireland it seems to be price and not quality that matters.

I would like to have believed that local "professional" photographers would also believe in quality and have printed multiple samples on all the different canvases and explained the differences and archival qualities (to the best of my knowledge, which is limited) on each. Out of 10 local "professional" 8 choose the crap polyester, 2 choose 800m. Even thought they are informed with the Breathing Color literature that I provide.

Costs I think may be a little different in the US vs here in the Irish Republic. a 24" roll of 800m costs around $137.46 for me from the UK using xe.com conversion to $. The US site sells it for $79.20. A 24" roll of lyve costs me €191.65 for the US it's $129.60. A bit of a difference, I'm sure you'll agree.

So 800m per sq ft for me costs circa $1.72. So a 16x12 with a 2" wrap costs circa $3.82 in 800m. The stretcher costs me around $5. Epson UK tell me after xe.com conversion that the ink costs me $3.57. So, it works our almost €10 for me at cost even before counting timeless or glamour ii coatings. My competitors are charging €15 for a 16x12 print. Margins are tight. Quality does not seem to be No.1 in peoples priorities.

What I'm looking for is a sure fire way to educate people (who are passionate about their photos) in the advantages of real archival prints vs local lab (fuji chrystal prints). Very few are interested in canvas, the majority just want to buy an inexpensive frame and insert their prints. In this recession I would like to stay in business and pay back for the machinery I invested in AND print the best I can.

I understand where you're coming from Dan and I wish it was as simple as I guarantee this will last, an here is the evidence from my media manufacturer.

Again folks, excuse any ignorance I have and thanks in advance for the help!  

[MHMG]

... I've read articles like http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Ep9880_2010_04_24.pdf which cover aspects of epson media and have joined and donated to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ but am finding it difficult to analyse the data into a real world scenario i.e. the optica one results vs the crystal archive results. Perhaps it's because I sit up to stupid'o'clock and attempt to research everything whilst my wife and our 3 baby girls are in bed sleeping.

To cut a long story and question short. Could someone perhaps lend a hand and with trying to explain to future and current customers the advantages of printing with me over printing with the local lab.

thanks a million for your time and knowledge in advance.

Chief, please feel free to give me a call (phone number is on the homepage of the AaI&A website). I will be happy to answer any questions you have on interpretation of the test reports in the AaI&A database. My offer stands for any member of AaI&A. One of these days, I would like to add some video tutorials to the AaI&A website which will hopefully make the research more approachable. Regrettably, I don't have the resources to do more than I'm doing at the present time, but I'm always happy to hear from AaI&A members.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[bill t.]

I stopped using 800M canvas for mechanical reasons.

But I have 5 large, GlamourII coated 800M canvases on display in a brutal office situation since last September, and they still look great.  Direct sunlight through windows for several hours a day in the winter, intense indirect sunlight every day, bright fluorescent all night, tungsten spotlights 24/7.  Wilhelm and Aardenburg would be jealous of this setup!  I might have declined the sale if I had known where they would displayed, but now I'm glad I didn't.

BC finds itself in the situation of having to compete with other low cost canvas suppliers with its 800M product, while at the same time not wanting it to draws sales away from Lyve.  The 800M down-playing is intended to direct the newbies to Lyve, but at the same time they're winking at the high volume pros in their one-on-one pitches.  800M is an OK canvas that looks as good as Lyve, and which will very likely last about as long, IMHO.

The longer I do this stuff, the more I appreciate the companies that leave the hype machine switches in the OFF position.  Grumpy alert!

[dgberg]

Chief,
Bill puts things in the proper perspective. If it works for you that's all that matters.
Forgot about the differences in prices around the world,I guess were spoiled.
If you go to breathing colors website and click on 800m on the left side.
About halfway down that page will be a podcast describing all of BC's canvases.

[Rocco Penny]

Chief,
In no way can I help with any of the technical questions you have, and I'm pretty much a beginner,
I noticed you say you want to be well versed,
really,
be patient.
If you can take the time to immerse yourself in what you are doing to the point you are already doing it,
at some point, you will be well versed.
If you make a print a day for a year, and care about the prints you make, you'll soon be able to explain what works for you and why.  If that's not enough to fill your prospective customers with awe and wonder, then the local drugstore or drive thru photolab would be all they're gonna get anyway.
I suggest making a few prints that make everybody that sees them comment on at least some cool thing about them.
Then be patient.
I donated a piece to a local learning institution which they hung in an administrator's office.
Our esteemed Governor makes occasional appearances in the same said office.
The Governor has seen one of my pieces!
So,
from a guy that cares  _ _ _ _ all about skinning that mule,
keep at it and if you really love it good things will happen.
Now I wonder if the Gov looked at it, and whether he likes it.
hmmm

[bill t.]

Hey Rocco, I've sold pieces to 1 ex-president, 2 governors, 3 mayors!
But the current governor will not buy art for budgetary reasons, bummer.
Even so, that's a lot of mules.
All it took was being dumb enough to hang on long enough.

[Chief]

Thanks for all the advice folks. It's much appreciated.
I'm loving what I'm doing to be honest, I think I need to expand the market to further afield rather than just locally. Mark, I'll give you a call in the near future for a chat, but you'll have to forgive my speedy, Donegal Irish accent when I ring Dan I'll check out those podcasts, thanks. Bill, thanks also, tell me, what were the mechanical reasons for not using 800m anymore? What do you use now?

Thanks again Gents, I shall persevere! Great forum and great input.

[ftbt]

...  Donegal Irish accent ...

Donegal ...  Are you familiar with St. Ernan's Country House on St. Ernan's Island? We have had great times there. Wonderful location, excellent small guesthouse, fantastic food. Drank many a pint while gazing out to the bay.

[bill t.]

what were the mechanical reasons for not using 800m anymore? What do you use now?

Canvas manufacturers seem to have to have more than their fair share of bad hair days.  In this particular case, I found myself with a lot of rolls with serious weave errors sprinkled throughout in the form of long varicose vein bumps that went way beyond normal canvas texture and which also caused head swiping and mega-clogs.  Naturally I had delayed printing for a show until there was no time to replace rolls, so I wound up unwinding rolls to cut away bad sections and it was just no fun at all.

BC is not alone in these kinds of problems, I have similar interesting issues with all the manufacturers I have used.  Canvas can be a harsh mistress at the printing stage, but mostly a very forgiving sweetheart when you're passed that.

Now I use a lot of Lexjet Sunset Select for institutional clients, and sometimes Lyve for galleries and art fairs.  The Lexjet stuff has been coming through really great lately.  Am thinking of seeing what Epson has available now, they have excellent QC on their media products.

[Damir]

If one of your target is local camera club you need to have in mind that archival print is not what they are interested for. They need the prints that can survive a lot of rough handling.

Regarding canvas and paper - I know you print on Epson but have you ever tried some of HP material - here (in Croatia) HP is much cheaper than enything else, quality is great, never had problem with HP substrates, which I can not tel for other manufacturers that I tried.

[Sven W]

Hey Rocco, I've sold pieces to 1 ex-president, 2 governors, 3 mayors!
But the current governor will not buy art for budgetary reasons, bummer.
Even so, that's a lot of mules.
All it took was being dumb enough to hang on long enough.

And I made a print for The Crown Princess Victoria, given as a wedding gift from an embassy  

/Sven

[Chief]

..and I made a 36x24 inch 50 photo hand blended photo collage for my most important client at Christmas... my wife! She loved it! of the last 4 years of our lives and our 3 girls from birth to December 2010 AND a 70 inch panorama of the view from ancient hillfort remains above where we live on the shores of Lough Swilly, Inishowen, Co. Donegal. She loved that to thank god!

Damir, certainly the local lab / pharmacy for rough prints. But we have an exhibition for during the local music and arts festival in July and hopefully i'll sway a few members to go archival for it.

Thanks for the info Billm i'll keep it in mind.

ftbt, yes I know of it. A beautiful spot. Almost as beautiful as the Inishowen Peninsula, the most northernly part of Ireland, where I live. Often referred to as, "Ireland in Miniature". Check out http://www.visitinishowen.com

Well Mark @ Aardenburg-Imaging.com, fair play to you. Not long after posting here I (during my stupid 'clock night time researching sessions) discovered: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/documents.html I am now superbly educated and whilst still no expert, It's all coming together. Fantastic work Mark! I will be in touch soon!