View camera for Leaf Back

[jonathan.lipkin]

Hello all,

I'm in the process of trying to put together a digital system. At the moment I'm considering a Leaf back attahced to a Toyo vx using a kapture group back. I went to test yesterday at the dealer and it went pretty well. My only concern is the fact that the standards are very close together and using shorter lenses (i was testing with an 80) say a 60 or even in the 50 range would severely limit movements. I would like to put together a system that allows for some of the LF movements I'm used to - primarly drop and forward tilt. I don't need very extreme movements - usually a tilt of two degrees or so, though I do drop to about the limit of the lens.

Is this the right system? Would I be better off with a 6x9 view camera, for instance? Can anyone point me to a thread or article?

[DanielStone]

Hi John,

When you say "VX", I'll believe you're referring to the VX125 from Toyo? Great camera btw . However, it was designed with sheetfilm users(or with a rollfilm back) users in mind, not MF digital. Although it is a great camera "all around", I think that if you're going to be shooting with MF digital, and need movements(which are TINY!!!! compared to those with sheetfilm), and the tolerances are much tighter, unfortunately...

A guy I assist for has been using a Sinar P2 w/ a sliding back for shooting architecture here in LA, and has had some of the problems you mentioned. Primarily when using WIDE lenses(like that 45mm Rodenstock), even with a recessed(about 25mm) lensboard in place, its still tight  .

So.. you have a few options... you could go with a "tech camera" like the Alpa, or IMO, the much better Arca Swiss RM3d. They don't have the full-fledged movements of a "proper" view camera, but for most applications where those movements aren't needed, they really shine.

Also, depending on your digital back(you say Leaf, but WHICH MODEL), some sensors don't respond all that well to swings and tilts, and can get color casts. This can be problematic, so once you find out if your back is capable with movements w/o a problem of color cast with movements applied, it'll be easier to make a more accurate recommendation.

If I hadn't involved myself so much with my Sinar system for 4x5 film use, I'd have gone with a VX125, they're wonderful cameras(albeit IMO best with film usage )

-Dan

[jonathan.lipkin]

Dan, thanks for the reply. Yep, it was the vx125. I like the camera - sort of halfway between a field camera and a full monorail like the sinars I've used. The tilt indent for the front standard was a tight so hard to make the minute shifts I need, but not bad for a portable system (I need to be able to carry and set up on a high tripod). P2 looks a bit bulky to carry around.

Not sure I'll need to go as wide as 45, but might go down to the 50s.

The back I have been testing is an Aptus 75 (s I think) and might buy that or a II7 depending on what the dealer can get in stock, with a Kapture back sliding adapter. I saw some odd color effects when i was testing but I assumed these came from the mixed lighting in the store. I will rent the camera/back for a day or two to test.

I think the dealer was steering me away from the Arca Swiss because I don't have an enormous amount of money. I'll have a look at the video here (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/arca-rm3d.shtml) and see if it can do what I need.

-jl

[yaya]

A 6X9 with bag bellows should give you enough movements with most lenses down to ~45mm. Mind you the sliding back pushes the sensor further back so you'll need recessed lens boards (actually you'll need recessed boards with any WA lens)

Colour casts can be corrected in Leaf Capture or Capture One. This is the nature of shooting digital with symmetrical lenses and movements.

[LiamStrain]

The Arca M2, if you don't want to move into the tech camera route, is a fantastic rig. And will certainly give you more flexibility with the wide angles.

Christopher Barrett has a detailed review up on his blog: http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800

Not cheap, but if it meets your needs...

[jonathan.lipkin]

Liam, many thanks for the info. That looks like a great solution. Do you know if anyone in NYC sells it? The only place I was able to find through google was badger graphic in Wisconsin. For that kind of money, I'd like to put my hands on it before I buy.

The review does bring up an important limitation that I had noticed with the Toyo - it is very hard to make adjustments of tilt (not so much rise fall) without geared movements.

[yaya]

Liam, many thanks for the info. That looks like a great solution. Do you know if anyone in NYC sells it? The only place I was able to find through google was badger graphic in Wisconsin. For that kind of money, I'd like to put my hands on it before I buy.

The review does bring up an important limitation that I had noticed with the Toyo - it is very hard to make adjustments of tilt (not so much rise fall) without geared movements.

Rod Klukas is the Arca-Swiss rep for the US: Link

[Anders_HK]

The Arca M2, if you don't want to move into the tech camera route, is a fantastic rig. And will certainly give you more flexibility with the wide angles.

Christopher Barrett has a detailed review up on his blog: http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=800

Not cheap, but if it meets your needs...

Jonathan,

Depending on what you will shoot you should perhaps consider a tech camera with tilts instead of a viewcamera? Digital due in part of smaller image area (sensor vs. film) requires far more preciseness than film. That may prove tedious when on a viewcamera to adjust both tilts and swings for each shot, but depends also on what you shoot. You may find that you can live without lens movements because DOF is larger for the smaller sensor than film. Thus essentially you could have alternatives such as Arca RM3d, Cambo RS, Alpa STC etc.

I believe Chris Bennet now uses the RM3d, and it seems Mike Dubovoy has much switched to Alpa instead of Linhof 6x9. My guess is that if you shoot product photography you may wish to go the viewcamera route, else a tech camera may be more handy. However, this can depend on your personal preferences. If you go with a viewcamera you are most likely best served to get one with mirco precision of lens movements, e.g. some from Arca, Linhof. There is also the interesting Linhof Techno.

Regards
Anders

[jonathan.lipkin]

Thanks Yaya and Anders for the replies. Not sure I know exactly what a Technical Camera is -- I need something portable as I shoot in the field, with a tiny bit of tilt (haven't needed more than 5degrees, I'd venture) and as much drop as I can muster.

I had been shooting with a toyo 45a field camera which worked just fine for 4x5, but with the shorter focal lengths required for the digital back, I was not able to move the standards as much as I needed to. Not sure that I'd be able to make the shots I need without just a bit of tilt, so the rangefinder Arcas/Alpas probably wont' work unless I they have a way to preview/estimate the Scheimpflug effect.

The Arca M2 looks like a very nice solution - will see if my dealer can get his hands on one.

Would something like a Technikardan do, or is it too flimsy? Not sure I can afford the 679 or the Techno.

[cng]

Thanks Yaya and Anders for the replies. Not sure I know exactly what a Technical Camera is -- I need something portable as I shoot in the field, with a tiny bit of tilt (haven't needed more than 5degrees, I'd venture) and as much drop as I can muster.

Tech cameras are flat "pancake" cameras, essentially a view camera with one standard, no bellows and helical focusing mounts for the lenses (e.g. Arca R series, Cambo Wide RS and DS, any Alpa 12, Sinar arTec).  IIRC they all offer varying amounts of movements, except for Alpa's TC and WA (not to be confused with Alpa's STC and SWA).

The Cambo RS/DS and Alpa have tilts as part of each lens board (adding to the cost of each lens).  The Sinar arTec and some of the Arca R series have integrated tilt as part of the camera body.

Cambo's tilt/swing panels offer independent tilt and swing.  Alpa's tilt panels only offer either tilt OR swing across one plane (depending on the orientation of the lens panel) and won't work on lenses shorter than 80mm.  I can't comment on Sinar's and Arca's implementation of tilt/swing as I'm not familiar with these systems.

rangefinder Arcas/Alpas probably wont' work unless I they have a way to preview/estimate the Scheimpflug effect.

Tech cameras are technically not rangefinders, lacking true RF focusing ability.  Composing and focusing on a tech camera depends on the user: accessory optical viewfinder, GG, sliding back, hyperfocal (note that the DoF scales on the lenses are not accurate for digital sensors), laser rangefinder, sonar module (Arca only), focus stacking, shoot/reshoot, tethered etc.  There is also now the new high-res screens and firmware features on the IQ backs, which is hoped will help enormously.

If budget is important, then the Cambo Wide DS is cheaper than the other offerings, and will still take the same lens boards as the newer RS.  The DS was designed to take both digital backs and 4x5 film, and has ample lateral and vertical movements.  It was later superseded by the smaller RS.

There are numerous posts discussing all these cameras and their pros/cons on the LL and GetDPI forums.

[LiamStrain]

the Technikardan S 23, might work - certainly it would get close enough for the wides... 

However, I do not know if it is rigid enough, and lacking geared movements, may quickly get frustrating.

[Doug Peterson]

Thanks Yaya and Anders for the replies. Not sure I know exactly what a Technical Camera is -- I need something portable as I shoot in the field, with a tiny bit of tilt (haven't needed more than 5degrees, I'd venture) and as much drop as I can muster.

Advantages and Description of a Tech Camera

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[jonathan.lipkin]

Update - just went to check out a Linhof 679M, a CS I think?? An amazingly well built and beautiful camera. A bit too pricey for me at the moment, and worried about resale. Have a line on a used Sinar P3 which I'm going to check out. Might also be hard to sell, so may pick up a P2. Awfully heavy though.