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Author Topic: 1DS MARK II Availability  (Read 4897 times)

jani

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« on: May 31, 2005, 04:29:20 pm »

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Pom is right, the 1Ds has always been a special-order item, and is usually back-ordered, due to cost and demand. It will probably be another year before a replacement is announced.
Unless they pull an Epson, that is.
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eatstickyrice

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2005, 04:10:22 am »

Gary, I hadn't heard of camera shake associated with the number of pixels. Could you elaborate some on that?

Next, I have started to wonder if there will be a next geneartion release to replace the 1D Mark II in the next 6 months. The $500 rebate that's being offered might be a strategy for clearing existing stock to prepare the way for such.

Rick
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 12:01:49 pm »

Not true. The perceived detail and clarity of a print is directly proportional to the pixel count, all else equal. There is a 4x difference in print clarity between a 4MP and 16MP image. You're only doubling resolution on each axis, but since you're doubling resolution in the horizontal and vertical axes, the net resolution increase is 4X.
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John Camp

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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2005, 07:18:02 pm »

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The only catch to that theory is that Canon has indicated that a unification of the 1Ds and 1D series is in the works, so that a single body will have high resolution and high speed capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised to see this implemented in a similar fashion to the D2X, where full resolutions is available  at ~4FPS, and a reduced resolution center crop option offers ~8FPS. A 1.3x crop from a full-frame sensor would be just about right. My guess is that such a replacement body would be announced on the schedule for replacing the 1Ds-MkII rather than the 1D-MkII.

It would be interesting if Canon consolidated on the 1.3x size, rather than FF, though I suppose that's about as likely as Osama being elected Pope...Nikon as shown that the smaller sensors can hold up quite well compared to FF, and 1.3x would still give Canon more room than Nikon...maybe one of you math heads can figure out how many Nikon-sized sensor wells can dance on the head of a 1.3x?

A 1.3x sensor would also solve some of Canon's wide-angle problems (if those actually exist (I'm a Nikon guy and know only what I read on the web, god help me) and give Canon lenses a free boost on the long end...And that boost, I will say, is kind of interesting. I was shooting a swim meet this morning with a relatively inexpensive Nikon 80x400 which with the D2x is a 600...and at ASA 400 the shots came out surprisingly well, even semi-handheld...

Even more interesting would be a non-35mm-shaped sensor...

JC
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John Camp

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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 11:53:53 am »

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A 1.3x sensor would also solve some of Canon's wide-angle problems
When the sensor is just imposing a 1.3x crop on the same lenses as can be used with a 35mm format sensor, it does not solve any wide angle problems, it just adds them. Cropping away the poor edge performance of a lens can just as well be done by traditional cropping from a larger format frame, and in situations where the edge performance of the larger frame is acceptable, the 1.3x sensor crop gains nothing and restricts your angular FOV options.

The only solution to wide angle lens performance is new wide angle lenses; either improved 35mm format wide angle lenses, or new ones designed for a format like 1.3x or 1.6x. My prediction is that
a) Canon is not going to introduce a third line of lenses for 1.3x, between EF and EF-S.
 Canon is not going to design any new lenses solely for the benefit of improving wide angle coverage in 24x36mm frame format. As fas as I can tell, all recent lenses from Canon and everyone else are in large part aimed at smaller format DSLR sales, even if also useful with 35mm format. The number of 1Ds users and buyers is a tiny fraction of the number of people with good quality 35mm film SLRs, and so the potential customer base is not enough to commercially justify any new "35mm only" specialty lens like a very high quality wide angle lens.
c) Thus, any wide angle solution from Canon will be for 1.6x format, with its far larger potential for lens sales. Combined with the telephoto advantage of the smaller 1.6x format ...
I don't disagree with your predictions.

By solving its wide-angle problems, what I meant was that Canon apparently has this problem with several lenses. If the company went to a 1.3 crop, the current lenses might be more usable than they are with FF, and then they would only have to introduce 1 new redesigned lens, say a really good zoom in the 14mm-25mm range. Right now, from what I read of Canon, its users are pushing for new lenses throughout the wide range...

I know that Canon is a terrific camera, and I *want* it to be a terrific camera, because that will push Nikon. But I'm more and more of the feeling that Nikon has done something competitively interesting with its D2x. No matter what you think of the two cameras' absolute qualities, I would say that almost everyone would agree that the D2X now works well for almost any task that five years ago would have been given to a 35mm film pro shooter. The quality is good enough for any journalistic use, from high-end magazine to low-end newspaper work. But in sticking with a 1.5 crop, and by producing a really good series of new wide-angle lenses, Nikon has also simultaneously created, by default, a series of (relatively) inexpensive and fast long lenses. The whole Nikon system just effectively dropped radically in price, and with no real practical difference in quality of output between Nikon and Canon.

I know that some people will tell you that no camera is even decent if it can't produce faultess ASA 1600 or 3200 shots, but I doubt few pros think that. People were producing great shots five years ago with film, when even ASA 800 film was considered suspect...

So I think Canon is going to have to do something creative. Sticking on more megapixels isn't creative; it might appeal to a few landscape photographers who are always clamoring for more resolution and detail -- it might appeal to anyone who formally used a medium format or large format camera -- but for more working pros, it's now the other qualities that become more important: *Great* wide lenses, for example, or total system cost.

Despite the hated WB encryption problem, it may even be that Nikon is being more creative in its approach to software, too. If it can maintain sales in Nikon Capture, even if by shoving them down our throat, maybe it eventually will start producing software that Adobe, for instance, is not willing to produce because it would be too camera-specific. Like software that could be customized for each individual lens in multiple ways...

It's going to be interesting. :-)

JC
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msandifo

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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 08:39:43 pm »

I have sold my 1DS on ebay this week, I actually owned it for almost 18 months. 18 months is a long time in this rapidly changing tech world. I was going to buy a 1DS MARK II and found out that they are mostly backordered. My concern is that Canon is drying up the stock before they release a new model. My question- has there been any talk of a new camera?
Thanks for any help.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 09:23:03 pm »

Pom is right, the 1Ds has always been a special-order item, and is usually back-ordered, due to cost and demand. It will probably be another year before a replacement is announced.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2005, 06:09:55 am »

At the risk of appearing facetious  :p ...

Yes there is a new Canon on the way, according to my secret mole in Japan!

If you wait a few month you will be able to buy it, well maybe 12 months or so.



Seriously, I did have a chat with the Canon people in Australia here and whilst they don't have clue exactly what's in the pipeline they made 2 good points:

1. The above 'joke' - there will always be a new one on the horizon.

2. More usefully, the differences between the models is becoming less. Even if you did get a new 1Ds2 now and another one was released in 12 months (likely) then it does not make the one in your hand any less good. Moreover, the new one is not going to be a quantum leap forwards so the differences are more likely to be perfomance based than sheer pixel counts. Even now it's not always that easy to see the difference between the files from the 1Ds and the Mk2.

Nick
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Gary Ferguson

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2005, 09:27:21 am »

I was surprised to learn that you're having difficulty ordering the 1Ds Mk II, it's been freely available for at least a month here in the UK.

Regarding the point about the generational differences being eroded as progress continues, I agree with the previous post. I replaced my 1Ds with a 1Ds Mk II, the results are a little bit better, and it's certainly a bit faster to use, but for the great majority of A3 prints I'd be hard pushed to say if it was shot with a 1Ds or a 1Ds Mk II. Wide angle lens quality and camera shake if hand holding seem to be absolute quality barriers once you climb above 8 or 10 MP.
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jani

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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2005, 05:57:56 am »

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Gary, I hadn't heard of camera shake associated with the number of pixels. Could you elaborate some on that?
It's not really about the number of pixels, but it's about the angular resolution of the image taken.

The higher the angular resolution, the more likely it is that miniscule movement is captured during exposure.

Let's take an example of two imaginary cameras.

Camera 1 has a resolution of 6 Mpx, or 3000 x 2000 pixels.

Camera 2 has a resolution of 24 Mpx, or 6000 x 4000 pixels, and the sensor is the same physical size as in camera 1.

Imagine that you're taking an image with 1/60s release time, that the subject is at the same distance for both cameras, and that you're doing so at the same focal length and aperture with the same lens.

The distance of the subject is such that one of its clear, contrast-rich edges is about one half pixel wide as seen through camera 1.

Imagine that moving the camera 1/10 of a mm results in an angular movement equal to about one half pixel, as seen through camera 1.

Then imagine that pressing the trigger causes the camera to shake just enough to move it 1/10 of a mm.

On camera 1, that movement will then probably not be visible.

On camera 2, the same movement is equal to a pixel's movement, which would definitely be visible.

But this is only relevant if you peek at movement in terms of individual pixels.

If you take the 6 Mpx image and the 24 Mpx image and print them both at, say, 10x15 cm, then you'll be unable to see the difference anyway.

The problem is that when you have a 24 Mpx sensor, you're much more likely to want to do larger prints, or in the case of web images, you're much more likely to crop it and take a much smaller part of the image.


To confuse matters more, if the sensors' physical sizes differ between the two cameras, then this seems to change the angular resolution relationship.

For instance, the Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom has a sensor output resolution of 3264 x 2448 at 8.80 x 6.60 mm, while the Canon EOS 1Ds MkII has 4992 x 3328 at 36 x 24 mm. At the same focal length, the Olympus has three times more angular resolution. Fortunately, you don't get a 200mm lens for this camera.

The Canon EOS 350D and 20D have 12.3% higher angular pixel resolution than the 1Ds MkII.

I have now ignored the basic issue of the narrowing of the field of view for smaller sensors, which of course is different by approximately the same as the so-called crop factor. So while the 350D and 20D can be said to have a higher angular resolution, they also cover a far narrower image at the same focal length.

But of more practical interest is that the 1Ds MkII has a higher angular pixel resolution than the 1Ds MkI, and therefore can be more vulnerable to camera shake at the same focal lengths and FOV.

Quote
Next, I have started to wonder if there will be a next geneartion release to replace the 1D Mark II in the next 6 months. The $500 rebate that's being offered might be a strategy for clearing existing stock to prepare the way for such.
If a replacent is announced in 6 months, that's approximately 18 months after the previous release, or nearly two years after the announcement of the 1D MkII. The 1D MkI was announced about two years before the 1D MkII, so it's not unreasonable to expect a 1D MkIII (or a 2D, or some other name in the same market segment) announced before Christmas this year.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2005, 01:52:49 pm »

The only catch to that theory is that Canon has indicated that a unification of the 1Ds and 1D series is in the works, so that a single body will have high resolution and high speed capabilities. I wouldn't be surprised to see this implemented in a similar fashion to the D2X, where full resolutions is available  at ~4FPS, and a reduced resolution center crop option offers ~8FPS. A 1.3x crop from a full-frame sensor would be just about right. My guess is that such a replacement body would be announced on the schedule for replacing the 1Ds-MkII rather than the 1D-MkII.
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jani

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 11:01:16 am »

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From a wedding photographers point of view, having one body that can switch from 16 megapixel resolution for the formals, portraits and important shots, to half resolution (8 megapixel is still pretty high) for the shots that will in all probability never be enlarged, would save a serious amount of time with the post processing stage and necessitate less CF cards to be carried.
Besides, you can still do important shots at 8 Mpx, can't you?

Considering how good prints look in A3 from a 20D, I suspect it would work from a future 1-series camera, too.

As an aside, how common is it for newlyweds to order prints larger than A3?


And even more off-topic, since it's nit-picking: 8 Mpx is actually better than half resolution of 16 Mpx, it's 0.7 resolution. Half resolution is 4 Mpx.
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jani

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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 02:34:50 pm »

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Not true. The perceived detail and clarity of a print is directly proportional to the pixel count, all else equal. There is a 4x difference in print clarity between a 4MP and 16MP image. You're only doubling resolution on each axis, but since you're doubling resolution in the horizontal and vertical axes, the net resolution increase is 4X.
That has to be the strangest way of counting resolution I've heard of, yet it became all too common with the digicams.

I guess it comes from counting the total number of pixels, instead of how much more detail you can get.

But just don't call it resolution, you don't see four times the angular detail just because you have four times the total number of pixels.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 11:35:28 pm »

I do have my facts straight. Overall resolution is vertical resolution multiplied by horizontal resolution. Not all cameras have square pixels (like the Nikon D1X). The D1X overall image quality is related to the total number of pixels; looking at either horizontal resolution or vertical resolution alone will result in a significant error when calculating overall resolution. What's so hard to understand about that?
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2005, 05:23:07 pm »

Same thing really, since you can know the chip height in mm or inches or whatever. It's line pairs per 'something'.

In the specific case of digital cameras I suppose lp per 'chip' is most useful since it tells you the quality of the capture which is not necessarily expressed by the number of pixels. As MR once said (I think), Pixels ain't pixels.

Nick
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Nick Rains
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2005, 11:15:11 pm »

I think the 2:3 shape is here to stay as it is a quite versatile aspect ratio.

However, I would *love* to see a digital XPan! Imagine this with a simlar sized chip to the XPan film format size. Something like a 10000x4000 pixel chip (2 x 1dsMk2 chips). With decent Leitz, Schneider or Rodenstock glass this would eclipse my favoured 6x12cm film fomat and would be vastly more user friendly!  Mmmmmm...digital XPan...

Nick
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BJL

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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2005, 11:24:35 am »

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A 1.3x sensor would also solve some of Canon's wide-angle problems
When the sensor is just imposing a 1.3x crop on the same lenses as can be used with a 35mm format sensor, it does not solve any wide angle problems, it just adds them. Cropping away the poor edge performance of a lens can just as well be done by traditional cropping from a larger format frame, and in situations where the edge performance of the larger frame is acceptable, the 1.3x sensor crop gains nothing and restricts your angular FOV options.

The only solution to wide angle lens performance is new wide angle lenses; either improved 35mm format wide angle lenses, or new ones designed for a format like 1.3x or 1.6x. My prediction is that
a) Canon is not going to introduce a third line of lenses for 1.3x, between EF and EF-S.
 Canon is not going to design any new lenses solely for the benefit of improving wide angle coverage in 24x36mm frame format. As fas as I can tell, all recent lenses from Canon and everyone else are in large part aimed at smaller format DSLR sales, even if also useful with 35mm format. The number of 1Ds users and buyers is a tiny fraction of the number of people with good quality 35mm film SLRs, and so the potential customer base is not enough to commercially justify any new "35mm only" specialty lens like a very high quality wide angle lens.
c) Thus, any wide angle solution from Canon will be for 1.6x format, with its far larger potential for lens sales. Combined with the telephoto advantage of the smaller 1.6x format ...
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2005, 09:18:22 pm »

As far as I know they have been backordered since they were announced.

Another reason could be to hold them until the promised new firmware is updated on the cameras waiting to ship.

I can't see them updating this camera a year after it was born, that said as I'm about to buy a 1Ds I'll be very p-issed if they do!
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msandifo

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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2005, 08:01:35 am »

I checked B&H again this morning and they showed the 1DS MK II in stock. I ordered one. A photographer friend that shoots with a 1DS MK II and a 1D MK II says that we are at a point where these cameras are good enough that we don't need to be concearned with all the upgrades.

Just like Nick said.  

I appreciate your responses. This problem won't concern me for a couple of years now (I hope). I find the art of photography a ton of fun and the gear talk a necessary evil. Even so I read Michael's reviews like a religion every time he posts one.

Mike
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 10:23:07 am »

Could it not replace both?

To be honest unless it offers a huge breakthrough in DR or noise, or weight for that matter, I doubt any photographer who has decided on either the 1D or 1Ds (mkII) based on their specific needs and has invested as such, will rush to buy a 'two in one' camera. Even for those photographers with both, upgrading to a 1Ds mkIII although it would encompass both cameras in one body, would also leave them making a significant loss on the sale, plus leaving them without a high end backup for either application.

The implications being as others have pointed out, that there will be less mark II bodies being dumped on the market when the Mark III arrives than there were 1Ds's and so the price will not drop so much. After such significant investments a lot of pro's are going to weigh up the improvements to the price and say to themselves that the 1Ds mkII is as good as they need from a 35mm style DSLR. If Canon were to magic an extra couple of stops in the highlights then that would be a different story...

Why the 1Ds mkII could not have a half resolution RAW/Jpg setting with double write speeds (even with a 1.3X crop) only canon knows, no doubt it is holding it back as I doubt it would take a drastic design change.
From a wedding photographers point of view, having one body that can switch from 16 megapixel resolution for the formals, portraits and important shots, to half resolution (8 megapixel is still pretty high) for the shots that will in all probability never be enlarged, would save a serious amount of time with the post processing stage and necessitate less CF cards to be carried.
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