Getting in all the dynamic range.

[rueyloon]

I've been using the Aptus 65 for around 3 years. I do see the immediate advantage of the higher dynamic range.

Recently when working with a friend, he mentioned that alot more of the dynamic range captured by the Aptus is
only available during "recovery", like either recovering the highlights or shadow area, or when adjusting the exposure
of the image post processing. Is there a way to compress all the information into 1 image ? ala film look ?

I know this is a loaded question, I just started moving back towards film for some of my jobs after 8-9 years riding
the digital wave and certain things I took for granted are starting to appear right before my eyes now.

I read somewhere on the net that negative film supposedly has 13 stops of dynamic range and digital backs can
achieve 12 stops. So how do I contain all that information into 1 image ?

rgs
rueyloon

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I read somewhere on the net that negative film supposedly has 13 stops of dynamic range and digital backs can
achieve 12 stops. So how do I contain all that information into 1 image ?

It's called tonemapping, and various methods can be used to boost global and local contrast. The cleaner the original capture data, the more local contrast adjustment one can get away with.

Cheers,
Bart

[Doug Peterson]

I've been using the Aptus 65 for around 3 years. I do see the immediate advantage of the higher dynamic range.

Recently when working with a friend, he mentioned that alot more of the dynamic range captured by the Aptus is
only available during "recovery", like either recovering the highlights or shadow area, or when adjusting the exposure
of the image post processing. Is there a way to compress all the information into 1 image ? ala film look ?

I know this is a loaded question, I just started moving back towards film for some of my jobs after 8-9 years riding
the digital wave and certain things I took for granted are starting to appear right before my eyes now.

I read somewhere on the net that negative film supposedly has 13 stops of dynamic range and digital backs can
achieve 12 stops. So how do I contain all that information into 1 image ?

rgs
rueyloon

Dynamic Range is a degree of flexibility, not a goal. The goal is not to use the entire dynamic range of the camera. The goal is to get a pleasing image with detail in highlights and shadows where you want it, and deep rich blacks and paper white where you want it. The tools to achieve that goal often rely on the dynamic range of the system which determines the limits of those tools - i.e. you can't dodge a shadow which is outside the Dynamic Range of the camera you used.

It should also be noted that all numbers aside (12 stops, 13 stops, whatever) the quality, texture, tactility of the detail that you're able to extract from highlights/shadows matters a great deal. Just because you can dodge a shadow and see detail doesn't mean the end result will be pleasing to the eye. The goal is to have recovered highlights and shadows look like they weren't "recovered" but rather have it look like they are a continuous part of the image with the same grain structure, tonal smoothness, and color accuracy/fidelity as the rest of the image.

Most images do not look better with the entire range of the digital back used throughout the image. For instance slide film was very popular for it's crisp/contrasty appearance which was the result of very low dynamic range (compared to negative film or digital backs). The downside of that crisp/contrasty/appearance was a complete lack of forgiveness when it came to highlight clipping.

That's why the default development settings on your Aptus clips data that is in the raw file. The software engineers have to give you something as a default and they pick something that will be relatively pleasing to most photographers. If they picked a default setting which used the entire range of the back the result would be very low contrast and appear muddy and boring to most photographers (myself included). But there is ZERO reason why you should not customize the default development (through a style in Capture One) to show more or less of the raw's dynamic range in the initially presented image according to your personal look.

The most common application of a digital back's wide dynamic range is not a full-frame use of the entire range, but rather local adjustments of dodge/burn that draw on the "reserve" dynamic range which is usually not used.

Take for instance in a landscape including a bright sky at the top and dark trees/soil/rocks at the bottom. Traditionally a photographer would use a graduated ND filter to help capture both the highlights of the bright clouds/sky and the shadows of the trees/soil/rocks, but the utility of such a filter drops as the horizon becomes less regular/straight (e.g. broken up with irregular mountains) or as lower-frame objects like lakes catching a reflection of the sky break up the top-bright-bottom-dark schema implied by a strait graduated ND filter.

Now in raw development instead of using a traditional graduated ND filter you can use local burn/dodge or a variety of HDR methods.

Within Capture One you can use the LCC tool to analyze a frame and apply the correction to the frame itself as a defacto localized ND filter producing consistent contrast, but localized adjustment to exposure (i.e. a type of HDR) to do this at the raw level before further refining the use of the reserve dynamic range using local adjustment brushes. This technique has not been previously documented but I'm hoping to write an article today or over the holiday outlining it's application - don't worry - it will be in the form of a video since it's very hard to describe in words!

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Correctly exposing to the right will optimize dynamic range. That essentially means that the sensor would be near saturation for non specular highlights.

The way I do this is (in Lightroom):

1) Expose to the right (in Camera)
2) Determine maximum exposure for highlights
3) Choose "blacks# so we are near clipping
4) Adjust mid tones with brightness slider

Do tonal adjustment using available tools. You can extract a lot of shadow detail with fill light. 

I'd definitely say that it is no good idea to utilize the DR of the image in full. It's a reserve capacity to be used when needed.

Display devices have much narrower DR than sensors, so to present the full DR of a sensor on screen or in print takes some excessive manipulation, called tone mapping. Tone mapping can lead to very odd results.

Best regards
Erik

I've been using the Aptus 65 for around 3 years. I do see the immediate advantage of the higher dynamic range.

Recently when working with a friend, he mentioned that alot more of the dynamic range captured by the Aptus is
only available during "recovery", like either recovering the highlights or shadow area, or when adjusting the exposure
of the image post processing. Is there a way to compress all the information into 1 image ? ala film look ?

I know this is a loaded question, I just started moving back towards film for some of my jobs after 8-9 years riding
the digital wave and certain things I took for granted are starting to appear right before my eyes now.

I read somewhere on the net that negative film supposedly has 13 stops of dynamic range and digital backs can
achieve 12 stops. So how do I contain all that information into 1 image ?

rgs
rueyloon

[tho_mas]

Within Capture One you can use the LCC tool to analyze a frame and apply the correction to the frame itself as a defacto localized ND filter producing consistent contrast, but localized adjustment to exposure (i.e. a type of HDR)

absolutely great idea!
better than recovering blacks with the "shadow" slider in the "HDR" tool... much better.
many thanks for this tip!

[BernardLanguillier]

Within Capture One you can use the LCC tool to analyze a frame and apply the correction to the frame itself as a defacto localized ND filter producing consistent contrast, but localized adjustment to exposure (i.e. a type of HDR) to do this at the raw level before further refining the use of the reserve dynamic range using local adjustment brushes. This technique has not been previously documented but I'm hoping to write an article today or over the holiday outlining it's application - don't worry - it will be in the form of a video since it's very hard to describe in words!

Thks for the tip, I should probably spend a few hours during these vacation checking out the recent enhancements of C1 Pro 6.0!

Cheers,
Bernard

[rueyloon]

Ok, we managed to hit a few post before it starts on down on the slippery slope again.

This is NOT a thread about comparing dynamic range or trying to archive technical perfection.
This is NOT a thread for an open discussion.

My question is about a camera that I already have and I'm asking how to make the most out of it.
I'm just trying to maximize my utility of my current equipment. If there is anyone who is willing
to share your experience, I'm all ears and willing to learn.

(pause for 5 minutes)

I took 5 minutes trying to formulate the words to describe it, but I can't, so here goes.

Some of the guys here should just stop thumbing people down just because of a question.
Rarely you will know everything you need to know in this world or life. There will be a time when
you too will need to ask a question. It could be because you don't know enough about the topic, or
maybe just because you wanted to learn more.

It does help too by reading the question of my original post better to recognize that it is a
direct technical question and not an open discussion about dynamic range.

[fredjeang]

I agree! Now that I understanf more your OP I just deleted my last post that was out of your precise question.

[Alan Klein]

I agree too.  I just deleted my post also.  Maybe I'll learn something from your question.  Sorry I interjected my irrelevant thoughts.  Carry on.  Alan.

[Dick Roadnight]

This is NOT a thread about comparing dynamic range or trying to archive technical perfection.
This is NOT a thread for an open discussion.

My question is about a camera that I already have and I'm asking how to make the most out of it.
I'm just trying to maximize my utility of my current equipment.

I like to think that most of us try to help rather than score points, and I think that most advice relevant to your situation and equipment would be generally applicable.

One general piece of advice is "try to get it right in camera" - but you have not told us if you are doing studio, landscapes, architecture or what?

A polarizing filter can darken skies or tone down highlights.

For landscapes including buildings in the foreground, fill flash or reflectors can help keep the image in the DR

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Sorry, speaking as an engineer, which I happen to be...

To utilize the DR inherent in your camera you need to maximize the photons it collects. The method to do this is to maximize exposure so that you just avoid clipping. The popular term for this is to expose to the right. And use minimum ISO, by the way

Once you have your image exposed to the right you can choose where you set the black point. Setting it to zero and possibly adjusting exposer to the right in your raw-developer would maximize shadow detail. Than you can adjust brightness to taste. The image may be dull, so you can add an S-curve and perhaps do "local contrast enhancement" which may be called "clarity".

Best regards
Erik

I like to think that most of us try to help rather than score points, and I think that most advice relevant to your situation and equipment would be generally applicable.

One general piece of advice is "try to get it right in camera" - but you have not told us if you are doing studio, landscapes, architecture or what?

A polarizing filter can darken skies or tone down highlights.

For landscapes including buildings in the foreground, fill flash or reflectors can help keep the image in the DR

[fredjeang]

Rueyloon was right. What happened is that some of us, me included, have sort of take advantage of this topic to make our personal views on the general DR (pre)ocupation and that was not correct with the OP question, regardless if our comments where relevant or not but would have belong to another topic. So I can understand his reaction.

Ps: I agree with Erik about exposing to the right.

[rueyloon]

Thanks guys for bringing it back on topic. 

I do a split of 60% weddings and 40% commercial jobs. When I shoot commercial it is usually with lighting outdoors or in a studio. So it has never been a problem. Those clients are more interested in resolution anyway. I shoot my weddings using my Canon 5Ds, recently as described in another thread about the cyclical nature of our own creative rejuvenation process I slowed down and shot on film and also with the digital back.

If you remember shooting film, we like to shoot the whole roll overexposed 1 or 2 stops depending on your taste. It gives more details in the shadows and also it does not lose details that easily in the highlights even though we are underrating the ISO. The overall look suits a wedding shoot. After years of using Kobuta Tools and also Jessica Clair actions to post process my files, I start to find Jose Villa's film look refreshing.

While researching more about the topic I came across the specs that a digital back's and negative film's dynamic range is pretty close, so I would like to know how I can make more out of the file that I am getting from my Aptus 65. So ladies and gentleman, that's the genesis of my question.

To summarize, my question can be compressed to...

Hey I'm seeing all these extra information in the reserve portion of the file. Is there anyway I can make full use them ?

I use either Leaf Capture or Adobe RAW to convert my files, the tool Doug mentioned that is available in Capture One has piqued my interest as
well as a few others. I've downloaded the software but I'll probably need to wait until after the holidays before I can try it back in office.

thanks guys and merry christmas.

[Nick Rains]

My method to get the most DR out of any camera is to do the usual ETTR according to the camera's histogram and then, do another exposure at plus one more stop, and even plus two sometime. Then I know that if my first shot had some headroom that was not apparent in the histogram then the next shot would be very likely to be a genuine ETTR. The third shot is for those situations where I need more shadow detail and need to blend two exposures but that's getting OT.

Shoot one shot using ETTR and then one more for luck at plus one.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would recommend this article on comparing film and digital, written by a former Kodak researches:

http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html

Michael Reichmann has a couple of interviews with Norman Koren in the LLVJ journals. LLVJ 19 and LLVJ 8.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/Koren.shtml

Best regards
Erik

[JerryReed]

I wonder if painters spend so much of their time discussing brushes?

Jerry

[ErikKaffehr]

No,

Not brushes, but perhaps paints and canvasses.

BR
Erik

I wonder if painters spend so much of their time discussing brushes?

Jerry

[Nick Rains]

I wonder if painters spend so much of their time discussing brushes?

Jerry

In a forum with this title "Equipment & Techniques > Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography." I'd expect a certain amount of gear discussion...

Maybe painters have  a forum like this :
"Equipment & Techniques > Brushes / Bristles / How does bristle length affect my impasto?"

[ced]

If you could use the full range that you can capture the result would be flat dirty and quite dark too...
You can in any case only put onto any media only half of that so the question you need to ask yourself is where would you like to compress the info to get it to look right to you in print.
So capture as much as you can and decide where to compress the data to give you the preferred result.

[fredjeang]

I don't know if we are not all going in a wrong direction. It's a question, I do not have the answer. Basically what is observed is that there is an amount of extra data per file that seems lost somewhere. But as we
know that softwares in MF are critical, isn't there an amount of datas that are "reserved" for brand's software only? In other words, imposible to obtain otherwise than post-prod?
That could explains the incredible organic link that exists between the software and the back from the same house.
Don't know if you get it because my english there is rather limited.