Nik Software

[digitaldog]

Andrew, you seem to have the ability to dance on a pinhead. I will ask once again. Despite the "problems" with regards to using the plug ins, are you in favour of using them, or not?

I use all kinds of plug-in’s in Photoshop.

[kirkt]

... BTW in case you haven't used these third party plug ins they can be used on layers so the burning of pixels - the term you used - isn't really applicable?  

Just to clarify - Each invocation of a Nik plug-in effect is rendered on a layer; however, the effect is rendered onto a stamped (i.e., merge visible layers in the stack) version of the document.  So, each progressive invocation of a Nik plug-in edits the previously burned in edits on the composite of the visible stack.

For example, if I take my base image and do some capture sharpening on it in Sharpener, a new layer will be returned above my background that has this sharpening applied.  I then want to increase contrast, so I invoke ColorEfex Pro Contrast, and that plug-in returns a new layer at the top of the stack that has the contrast adjustment applied to the stamped composite of the stack (background+sharpener).  Then I want to add a Darken?Lighten Center adjustment in ColorEfex, so I invoke the plug-in and it returns a darkened/lightened image on a new layer, the plug-in applying its adjustment to the composite of the background+sharpener+pro_contrast.  (It is sort of redundant in this example to note that the stack is stamped prior to applying the edit, because the previous Nik-based layer contains the exact same information).  This darken/lighten center layer has all of the previous edits "burned in" - edits that cannot be changed like adjustment layers in a stack can.  This is nothing different than stamping the stack and applying a hard edit (burned in) to that stamped layer.  If you are 3 or 4 invocations of the plug-in into an edit and you decide you've screwed the pooch somewhere along the line, you can't go back and tweak something upstream without redoing everything downstream.  Each invocation of a Nik plug-in is burned in, only here it uses a traditional layers-based approach (which permits masking and painting in adjustments selectively). 

In contrast, using a Smart Object approach with Nik plug-ins permits a "non-destructive" workflow similar to adjustment layers.

Kirk

[stamper]

The "problems" you outlay shouldn't deter anyone from using these programs. I think you make it out to be worse than it really is? Photographers have been producing very good prints despite the difficulties. I sometimes think that some are more concerned with the process rather than the finished product.

[digitaldog]

The "problems" you outlay shouldn't deter anyone from using these programs. I think you make it out to be worse than it really is? Photographers have been producing very good prints despite the difficulties. I sometimes think that some are more concerned with the process rather than the finished product.

Assuming this comment is pointed at me...
Its all about process, at least after being informed of the ramifications of the process. Prints you find acceptable today may be unacceptable tomorrow based on newer technology etc and its useful to have some workflow flexibility. You don’t have to do this but let others decide. Even if you decide to re-render data from raw (because as we just saw with Process 2010, quality benefits result), UNDERSTANDING when and where data is affected in your workflow is, at least to some readers useful. All I did was make a post that clarifies what these plug-in’s do and don’t do in terms of the editing of the data IN a raw processing application.

Maybe you work for one of these LR plug-in vendors with a post like The "problems" you outlay shouldn't deter anyone from using these programs. Interesting comment. I’m simply spelling out the FACTS that these products are applying their edits on rendered data, the plug-ins do NOT operate on the raw data. The facts are, such plug-in’s act the same way in Photoshop (with the ability for the user to control layers and SO’s). IF you or anyone else wants to work this way or not, its AOK with me. But if some are under the impression that using these plug-ins in LR is the any different from applying them to rendered pixels in PS, that impression should now be more clear. Burn em on the bkgnd, layers, whatever. Just do it after understanding the process which at this point has nothing to do with a print that you seem to feel is final and the absolute end of the editing process.

We gone enough OT now?

[wolfnowl]

Andrew:  All chest puffing aside, perhaps you can answer this for me.  I have a raw image in Lightroom that I've run through the develop module.  I take that image, go to Photo/ Edit in Photoshop CS5/ Edit a copy with Lightroom adjustments and process it further.  I save and it saves the image beside the original back in Lightroom.  Now, I take a second image that I've run through Lightroom's develop module.  I take that image, go to Photo/ Edit in Nik Silver Efex Pro 2/ Edit a copy with Lightroom adjustments and process it further.  I save and it saves the image beside the original back in Lightroom.  In terms of what you're addressing, how are those two different?

Mike.

[Oldfox]

Prints you find acceptable today may be unacceptable tomorrow based on newer technology etc and its useful to have some workflow flexibility.

Offtopic again:

Andrew you are absolutely right on that.

Back in 2004 I attended a workshop. The instructor emphasized that "in this workshop we shoot only sRgb". The reason was "why shoot something that cannot be seen when edited". Back in those days the monitors would mainly show only sRgb gamut.

However I secretly shot raw. And now after seven years, I can get a lot more of the images than then shooting sRgb.

[stamper]

Quote Andrew

We gone enough OT now?

Unquote

Thanks for the explanation. When I originally replied to your post about burning pixels it was because I wasn't sure if your intention was to try and warn people off from using the plug ins or if you was merely emphasizing what was common knowledge. I don't have any agenda concerning the plug ins, but ironically I wondered if you had? I think the last few posts will be illuminating to many and you should be thanked for further clarification.

[Chris_Brown]

What I would like to know is do you process your image in Camera Raw and process in Photoshop first and then use Nik Software to fine tune.Or is the photo done strictly in Nik Software.

• Download the Nik demo version and install.
• Open an image in Camera Raw and apply parametric and localized settings.
• Open the image into Photoshop.
• Make initial corrections such as spotting, stray hairs, debris removal, etc. and save as a TIFF or PSD.
• Duplicate corrected/prepared layer.
• Apply your Nik software to this layer.
• If you like the results, buy the software and enter the license code(s).

In addition, there are plenty of lessons and videos on the Nik site to get you familiarized with their software.

[digitaldog]

Now, I take a second image that I've run through Lightroom's develop module. 

I draw a line in the sand when I’m finished processing the raw data with parametric edits, render that to pixels then take it into Photoshop for pixel editing. I separate parametric raw rendering from pixel editing. And when I edit pixels, with rare exceptions, its all done on layers. I use LR to catalog the image but its I no longer use Develop on that data.

[wolfnowl]

Okay, thanks!

Mike.

[monoprint]

Just to clarify - Each invocation of a Nik plug-in effect is rendered on a layer; however, the effect is rendered onto a stamped (i.e., merge visible layers in the stack) version of the document.  So, each progressive invocation of a Nik plug-in edits the previously burned in edits on the composite of the visible stack.

Ahh, I didn't know that. Just bought one of their plugins because for some things it can be a lot faster than doing it all in Photoshop. But when I use it it will be with smart objects for sure.

[Frankomatic]

When I trialed Nik DFine, the smart object didn't retain all the DFine settings I configured.  In my case I needed to create my own noise profile boxes, of certain sizes and at specific locations in the image, to get the effect I wanted.  When I closed the image file in PS, and reopened it (in the same PS session) all was well.  But after closing PS, then reopeing PS and the image file (now in a new PS session), the boxes were gone - destroyed.  Kinda defeats the purpose of using a smart object if the reason for doing so is to maintain a non-destructive workflow.

Regards,
Frank

[Robert Brummitt]

I'm interested in purchasing the Silver and maybe the color software. Do you recommend them or not?
I have a workflow that works for me but maybe a few tweaking here or there would help.
A friend gave me her Viveza and it's interesting, I must say.
R

[Rajan Parrikar]

I'm interested in purchasing the Silver and maybe the color software. Do you recommend them or not?

Yes, very highly.