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Author Topic: How much better will digital get?  (Read 50659 times)

BJL

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How much better will digital get?
« Reply #140 on: January 07, 2005, 01:49:27 pm »

John Camp,
   yours sounds like a number of ideas that seem plausable or are even being tried.

   Some sensor technologies do allow repeated rapid successive read out of photosites, so a slow read followed by a faster one could be possible. This would probably involve replacing the physical focal plane shutter by purely electronic shutter operation. (Electronic shuttering is already used in some CCD based DSLRs to get flash sync at 1/500s. So far CMOS DSLR sensors can not do this.)

   Fuji is currently trying a variant where the second lower exposure shot is done simultaneously with a second set of smaller, less sensitive "S" photosites placed in small gaps between the main "R" ones, effectively giving a dark and light version of the same image, which can then be blended.

   I have read about yet another variant on this being tried at Stanford; reading each photosite many times, every 1/10,000s or so, during an exposure, and then adding up the signals. This could eliminate full electron wells and blown out highlights, and so extend dynamic range arbitrarily at the bright end; only sensitivity at the shadow end would be left as a limiting factor.
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2005, 03:44:51 pm »

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Wouldn't it be fairly simple (conceptually, at least) to create a moveable back for 35mm that would resolve a lot of DOF problems?
Conceptually at least creating a movable back, yes, why not.  If it can be done for LF, there's no conceptual barriers for DSLR's, but the mechanics might get pretty nasty and pretty expensive and make a 1ds still bigger and heavier.
K-Minolta has already put a movable sensor in some of its cameras.  It's now a matter of installing proper controls and possibly increasing the range of movement.

---

I haven't seen anyone argue that lenses couldn't be better.  If that's true then it's an issue of the market demanding better lenses.  

It's hard for me to believe that lens manufacturing is state of the art.  There's no way that there should be significant variation between similar lenses if current technology were fully applied.

As sensors become more 'packed' and as people continue to share information on the web it should become worthwhile for lens manufacturers to step up to the plate and start delivering 21st century glass.
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howard smith

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« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2005, 01:47:51 am »

Buying a lottery ticket increases your probabilty of winning only very slightly.  Someone will win the lottery, just not you.  The point was you get what you pay for.  Seldom more, maybe less if you aren't careful.
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Ray

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« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2005, 09:13:32 pm »

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Well, we know that lenses as good as a Zeiss can be made.  

So given enough market demand one of the manufactures is going to revise their manufacturing process to crank out a flow of them.  
Demand is inextricably linked to price. If there's little demand for $5000 zeiss lenses it's precisely because they cost $5000.

Reduce the price to $1000 and you're in business and Canon is worried.

How do you get the price down to $1000? You set up a state-of-the-art lens manufacturing process in China.

Dead simple really. We benefit from the low prices. China benefits from the acquisition of state-of-the-art technology.

Same principle applies to $30,000 Phase 1 backs. Will it ever happen? Probably, although sometimes there's a political obstacle to exporting the latest technology if it has a military use.
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BJL

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« Reply #144 on: January 12, 2005, 10:29:48 am »

Pom is completely right that improving the sensor (I include film as a type of sensor) cannot make a lens perform worse than before; all it can do is give you an opportunty or desire to improve quality even more by spending even more on new, supposedly better lenses, such as ones touted as "digital friendly" even though they are also 35mm compatible.

If the conventional wisdom is true that camera makers derive a large share of profits from lenses and other accessories then Canon, Nikon et al might be pushing ever increasing sensor resolution partly as a stategy to get people to upgrade lenses; either from mid-priced models to the current top of the line, or from existing fine lenses to ones boasting improvements for the sake of working better with digital. Note for example the claims made by Nikon about improved flare control and such in its forthcoming 300/2.8 VR lens, and similar claims from Canon, Olympus and third party lens makers about "digital friendly" design features of many recent lenses.
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2005, 10:01:55 pm »

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The bottom line is, to get detail from the shadows one simply has to gather more photons from the shadows, and there are only 2 ways I can think of to achieve this; increase exposure time or open up the aperture.

Use your histogram.

Expose to the left.

If you have the ability to greatly extend the camera's DR you won't blow out the highlights.
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howard smith

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« Reply #146 on: January 12, 2005, 05:51:09 pm »

pom, I was on the ground.  The camera was on a US military recon aircraft.

License plates from earth orbit?  And that is just the stuff "they" tell us about.  So how do you suppose digital consumer cameras will be in another 40 years?  Heck, 10 years.

Quintin, the best photographer I know personally still uses a Leica range finder 35mm camera, 2 lenses (35 and 85ish), and no meter.  Back to the future.  I expect he could take some very great images with a 2mp shoephone camera.  (Max Smart reference, but folks of our vintage know that.)
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2005, 06:34:10 pm »

Hasn't there been very high resolution digital cameras in spy satellites since the late '70s?

I'm sure there are some people in NASA who are still rolling in laughter as people get excited about the new advances in 8mp 1.6x DSLR sensors, circa 2005...
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BobMcCarthy

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« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2005, 09:53:50 am »

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I do not see this as a problem. The small R pixels are meant to detect only a small fraction of the light available, so as not to fill their wells until several stops beyond the level where the S pixels are full.

Do you think the small pixels are used full range or just at the higher zones? The amount of information on this system sure is sketchy.

I have a D2x on order (number 7 on the store committment list) but I want a throw around camera for "in country" and as a backup. Sorry for staying on the topic so long!
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #149 on: January 01, 2005, 07:39:14 pm »

Would anyone agree that what canon should be doing is bringing out a 'fast' 1D series body with FF and 11-16 megapixels? It would be the obvious next step to amalgamate the 1D and 1Ds cameras and declare the race over in the pro DSLR stakes.

The problem is that since canon has split it's pro level bodies into two complementary divisions, lightening fast sports/action/journalist 1D and the landscape/studio take on Med format 1Ds, and are happily meeting and exeeding demand on both types of bodies, from a marketing point of view they would be happier to carry on this split instead of combining the two factors and cutting profits.

Another point would be that sports/action/journalist photographers would rarely need above 8 megapixel cameras, they were happy enough with the original 1D at 4meg, and sending loads of very big files from the point of action to the newsdesks, when the filesizes are obviously overkill for their application, would mean that these photographer would not necessarily go for a higher res camera, at a higher price, but with no particular gain.

Whether the 1Ds mark III will be 22 megapixels and the 1D mark III will be FF or not, I cannot see canon amalgamating these lines into one DSLR body within the next generation of high end pro DSLR's, and probably not for a bit after that either. Of course once Canon has 'won' and created the ultimate 35mm DSLR the prices will stabilise and their profit margin will sink as the the cameras get updated once every 5-10 years as opposed to the current 2 years or so and are bought accordingly.

I'm waiting for the 1D Mark II to become available at under $2000 or so on the 2nd hand market (another year and a half till the next model comes out?) and I think that it may be my final DSLR. I get incredible prints from my 10D, so 8meg will be fine for me especially with the larger photosites. The ETTL II will be a welcome break after having to get the flash right every time with manual FEC for each shot, and most importantly, the 1.3X factor is almost fill frame (popular focal lengths were popular because they were convenient for their task due to their FOV/DOF, the 1.6X factor screws that up completely when my 17-40, although it has the same FOV, has far too much DOF and distortion for event/wedding photography).
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Stef_T

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« Reply #150 on: January 02, 2005, 02:47:20 pm »

You're right pom. Sorry, I should have probably left that topic alone, since I don't know anything about it.
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Sfleming

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How much better will digital get?
« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2005, 04:04:33 pm »

I don't deny any of your arguements though none of them negate mine.  I'm just saying the Pro DSLR camera market is dangerously unbalanced and it does not bode well for us.  If Mamiya does no  better than Kodak (14N) with it's attempt at 22MP sensor cameras it could very  well be the last stab at any real competition to Canon.  

This  is NOT just another wrinkle in the ever fluctuating ebb and flow of the market.  It's a tidal wave sweeping all before it.  It isn't simply Canon's dominance that is so unnerving.  It  is  what  that  dominance will lead to.

Healthy competition in markets  is what maintains  them as places where  consumers  can still breathe and thrive. I believe  I can already see ... it's plain as day ... that we have passed the point where this positive, balanced equilibrium exists and perhaps it has  even gone  so far that  it can never  be reestablished.  

If Canon thought they needed to cater to  us in any way  they would give us decent WA prime lenses. ALso, say goodbye to the Pollyanna belief that  prices will come back down to something like film body  levels.  Never happen.

Most also seem to believe that  MF digital is a growing aspect of the  Pro DSLR world.  I just  don't.  The price is  too outlandish and it won't last as a market segment.  The day of small highly specialist oriented companies is past.  Past long ago.  The corporate culture  demands monster profits and  high volume.  Artistic endeavours making modest profits are not  tolerated. Keep in mind  it is an oriental corporate  behemoth we are all bowing to.

There are still a few little companies out there (most in Europe) swimming against the tide but they will tire and drop away as have a thousand before them just in the last couple years.  

Digital took photograpy  into the  realm of 'rocket science technology'.  Only a few (three?) chip makers control the market and this is not a situation that  will change.  Some little upstart like Foveon could make a breakthrough but they  will be bought out or forced to keep the prices high.  

Usually these sorts of sea changes take  decades to work their way into the  fabric of the  market and society.  The digital revolution took less than ten years to turn everything upside down.  That's just too fast.  Too many are running down blind allyways.  We're throwing away a whole world of photography with no regard to the consequences.

Oh well.  Film will be around for my lifetime  at least and all those  wonderful old lowtech  cameras are getting  cheaper  by  the  day.  I'm sure  glad photography is just my hobby.
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Sfleming

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« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2005, 12:47:49 am »

OK Johnathan,

Take my #100 bet.  I'm betting that you are 90% wrong.  Of course  it's a long term bet as It will take three years to prove  out.

Did the price of the  new  1Ds II come down from the first 1Ds?  No it  did not.  Did not Phase One raise the MP of their backs over Kodak by 6M and more than double the price?  

These are the trends.  Not what you keep predicting.  

You are drinking the  digital coolaide.  Go out and shoot  some film.
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BJL

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« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2005, 11:03:34 pm »

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To get really good DOF with an 8x10 camera, you may need to shoot at f64.  Even at f16 the super sharp Canon 2.5 macro lens loses so much due to diffraction that a 1ds picture is the same as a 1dsMKII picture.  So, if everything is proportional, then f64 with an 8x10 would mean extreme resolution loss due to diffraction.
I think that you are off by a factor of two there: f/64 in 8x10 gives about the same DOF as f/8 in 35mm (the linear size factor is about 8). So in a sense the 35mm slogan "f/8 and be there" is an echo of the f/64 movement. Yes, f/64 in 8x10 involves diffraction that overwhelms the resolution potential of modern films, but on prints of any given size, diffraction at f/64 in 8x10 is no more visible than from f/8 in 35mm.

Also, f/64 might not have sacrificed so much of the resolution of the emulsions available in the early days of the f/64 movement. Perhaps it was the improvement in emulsions, or just realizing that they had overeacted to pictorialist fuzziness in their choice of "f/64", which moved 8x10 users to more often use somewhat larger apertures than f/64, though this requires more emphasis on using view camera motions to get all of the main subject in sharp focus.

Or maybe that is why so many 8x10 users seem to be fond of grand, distant subjects, for which getting adequate DOF is easier: all you need is a hyperfocal distance of less than ten kilometers to make most mountains look sharp!
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howard smith

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« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2005, 01:49:32 pm »

****The fact is that today's best ultrawide lenses are not as good as those old Zeiss and Leica designs and there is no particular reason (except blind optimism) to think that there's any lens miracles in store any time soon.****

It wasn't very long ago that digital photography was unknown and the computer on your desk would have been the size of your house.  "Miracles" happen.  Maybe better better "glass" will not be glass.
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Jonathan Wienke

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How much better will digital get?
« Reply #155 on: January 05, 2005, 01:14:56 pm »

IIRC, the effects of diffraction are related to physical aperture size, so with longer lenses the same aperture diameter becomes a higher f/number. Since larger formats use longer lenses to cover the same FOV, you can get away with f/64 instead of f/8 because you're using a 300mm lens instead of a 24mm to get the same FOV. But the physical aperture diameter where diffraction starts becoming an issue is roughly the same in either case.
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BobMcCarthy

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« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2005, 11:05:07 am »

Wow , a 100 posts. All in a few days too. I 'll add my two cents.

To me 15 (pick a number) megapixels are 15 megapixels. Assuming the camera and lens are in an acceptable range, I find the prints to be largely comparable. This assumes lighting conditions, a lens sharp enough to resolve a sharp image on the sensor, a sound non vibrating platform (tripod), and good exposure technique. Thats what techniqually makes an image. The photographer adds the interpretation and composition.

Now the way I see it is " the devil is in the details".

All cameras will work well on an acceptable foundation, so that parameter is ok.

Exposure is somewhat chip dependent, but largely on just three parameters, noise (speed), number (of pixels), and cost ($). I'll come back to this point.

The photographer is a wild card.

Whats left is the lens. Thats why when I so often read, that Nikon is dead, I just laugh. There is "no" way that a major, high quality, glass company with all the cost advantages of large scale production of quality product is going anywhere but to be a survivor in an industry shakeout. Any company who is a player in high quality glass has the ability (potential) to survive.

Now back to the chip thing. For the point of the moment lets put aside cost. So, then all we want a sensor to do is gather data. How much is dependent on final print size. So we can, based upon our largest print size we expect to print, select the amount of data needed. (We can now rationalize uprezing if we bring cost back in).

So much data to collect, whats the best way to collect it. I know I need _?_ pixels. What does a bigger chip do for us? It makes life easier on the lens. Big pixels are easier on the lens requirement than small pixels. That seems fairly intuitive.

What about pixel quality? This is where I'm convinced significant progress will be made. And in two ways, hardware and software. Hardware will somewhere out there run into a wall (the darn physics thing), I think we have a little way to go yet. Software (either on chip or camera) or in the raw (jpeg) converter has the potential to make chicken soup out of chicken ****. This has a long way to go IMHO. Not only manipulating the data but allowing better yield in chip making. Locking out bad sectors has been happening in Hard Drives for a long time. Elegant ways of locking out bad transistors on a chip will become feasable at some point to improve yields someday.

On to the final point, we should expect better quality but were getting close to enough is enough. We should see significant breakthroughts in cost, with the lens and sensor coming into equilibrum with final requirements meeting the output needed.

I for one find it "nuts" to pay the rediculous prices the industry has sold the photography industry on. Although early adopters have funded all technology companies. I remember my first PC, A DEC rainbow, $7000+ with two floppies and a 10 Meg HD. Great monitor but monochrome. In 1982 dollars no less.

I think the brand arguments are silly, the format sizes interesting, but in the end we just want quality data. The path is lens first, chip second.

Two points before I close.

The idea that Canon will kill everyone else because they are bigger is not how it works. Canon is a great company with a broad array of products. They invest their R&D dollars in a number of different product categories, from camera's to copiers, to printers, to.... You get the picture. Each division gets R&D (or marketing) dollars because of two reasons, 1)greatest return or 2) defending the turf against outsiders. I doubt cameras get unlimited funds

Lastly, the chip guys when there competitively behind will gang up on the leader. Sony getting in bed with Nikon and others is an example. Canon jumped out there, there going to have to fight to keep it. Otherwise we'll never have a reasonably priced highpixel camera to create the LL.

Whew, I don't know where that came from, just started typing, Thanks for your indulgence.
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BJL

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« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2005, 01:32:57 pm »

Bob,

   I will try to answer some of your questions. Firstly, this photon shot noise (roughly the square root of the number of photons counted) is unavoidable; it comes from fluctuations in the emission of light, and is random in time and space, so the only way to smooth it out is (a) temporal averaging, meaning longer exposure times, to count more photons ( spatial averaging or bigger photosites to again count more photons, meaning trading away some resolution. (Apparently, many digital cameras quietly do an increasing amount of such spatial smoothing on JPEG output as the ISO setting is increased.)

Is 3% significant? What matters when you look at any given part of a print is the local ratio of signal to noise at those particular pixels, not quite the same as Ray's calculation. A Kodak document suggests that for local S/N ratio at individual pixels, 40:1 and up looks excellent while 10:1 is about the low limit for "acceptable appearance".

This suggests to me that it would be a plausable goal to have 40:1 local S/N ratio in mid-tones, requiring at least 1600 photons counted at a mid-tone pixel (18% luminosity) and so about 10,000 photons for a pixel seeing a 100% luminosity part of the subject. For example, the sensor in the Olympus E-1 can match or surpass that at up to ISO 400, and this fits fairly well with the consensus that beyond that, ISO 800 and up, is where noise becomes somewhat noticable in E-1 prints.
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didger

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« Reply #158 on: January 08, 2005, 04:25:15 pm »

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I haven't seen anyone argue that lenses couldn't be better.
That would be a tough argument, since at least ultrawides WERE better decades ago.  It's not that lenses couldn't be better.  It's that the whole 35mm market is dominated by gimmick intensive consumer goodies, rather than good solid optically excellent prime lenses without a lot of frills to add cost and subtract build and reliability.  For landscape work give me good glass and good build with no automtion at all and no zoom.  We'll die, say the marketing folks, and they'd probably be right.  Fortunately the MF market is a little different and good primes are available in all focal lengths.

I do hope you're right that manufacturers will get their heads out of their butts soon and start delivering the lenses that I also think they're capable of.  Sure, us Germans are pretty smart, but them Japanese engineers ain't all that dumb either.  They're just not putting their efforts into good optics as the highest priority, that's all.

Even with full on max effort, though, there's a limit how small you can make lenses with sufficiently tight tolerances to match ultradense sensors.  Your physical tolerances get smaller and smaller.  Acceptable 10 micron slop of some lens parameter for one sensor might translate to acceptable slop of 2 microns for another.  That might be the difference between very expensive quality control and totally impossible.  Electronic miniaturization is orders of magnitude easier than machining, grinding, and fabrication and quality control to the same physical tolerances of accuracy.  Lenses don't need to keep being the severe bottle neck they are today, but they'll always be the bottleneck without sci fi tech breakthroughs.

As for the sensor movement thing, there is the problem that sensor elements are greatly more sensitive to the angle of incidence of the light than film, so a lot of movement might not be feasible.  In any case this very cumbersome and no doubt expensive and weight increasing possibility won't do that much for DOF in most circumstances.
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Ray

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« Reply #159 on: January 08, 2005, 09:45:03 pm »

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Let's say the camera takes 3-6 quick exposures to get the 'blend' shots.  
Isn't this the problem? No quick exposure can capture detail in the shadows. If you want to blend images, you need one long exposure, one medium exposure and one quick exposure. Total time is one very long exposure.
Yes, this may be the downfall of that approach.  But let me try one other idea.  

Shadow areas don't throw off a lot of photons.  The problem becomes separating the signal derived from those few photons from the inherent system noise.

If you had multiple frames to compare it might be possible to do a pixel by pixel analysis to determine which were the 'real' signals by their appearance across multiple frames.
This sound to me no more than what film scanners are already doing. My Nikon Coolscan allows multiple passes. Noise has a random nature. The scan with the least noise in one part of the image is combined with another scan with the least noise in another part of the image to produce a single result with marginally less noise in the shadows. But I emphasise, the improvement is marginal and the extra scanning time hardly justifies the results.

The bottom line is, to get detail from the shadows one simply has to gather more photons from the shadows, and there are only 2 ways I can think of to achieve this; increase exposure time or open up the aperture.
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