Same framing, different times, how?

[feppe]

As part of a bigger project I'm considering returning to the same shooting locations and doing the same exact framing from the same exact shooting location as previously. Leaving the camera on location, marking tripod spots, or using a tripod are not options, nor is cropping. I'm not looking for pixel-perfect registering, but a close approximation.

The ideal solution would be to have the previous shot on the camera LCD at 50% opacity for accurate registering, but that's a feature which doesn't actually exist. One option is to buy a viewer such as Hyperdrive Colorspace loaded with the previous shots and eyeball it.

Are there other feasible methods?

[colinb]

would an A5 print from your first shot do? You could find a location that aligns with some easily visible landmarks, two trees, two lampposts and so on, and use that to always start at the same spot.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

My first thought is to hire a series of around-the-clock guards to protect your camera, leaving it set up, but that might be more expensive than buying multiple cameras.

How about this: Acquire or build a bar with two camera tripod screws and one tripod socket half-way between them. Attach this to your tripod, mount your own camera on one of the tripod screws and a second camera (even a cheap point-and-shoot, with a zoom lens) on the other. You would need to calibrate the system in a couple of ways:

1.   Mark on the dual-camera bar lines indicating exactly where the cameras are as you take the first photo, so you can mount them again pointing exactly the same direction.
2.   Note (or mark) on your main camera exactly the focal length you will take all the pictures at.
3.   Adjust the zoom lens on the P&S to match the field of view of the main camera as closely as you can, and mark that setting so you can repeat it.

When you first take a test picture, do it with each camera. The images should match pretty closely (for field of view) if your calibration is careful enough. Once you are sure you have a repeatable setup, keep a memory card with the original P&S test shot in the P&S camera, which you can display on the LCD screen to help you aim the setup for each photo in the series.

I hope this makes some sense. It might be workable if you already own a second camera or can buy one for less than the cost of a Hyperdrive Colorspace.

Eric

P.S. Colinb's suggestion is certainly simpler, if you have the necessary landmarks.

[Dick Roadnight]

The ideal solution would be to have the previous shot on the camera LCD at 50% opacity for accurate registering, but that's a feature which doesn't actually exist. One option is to buy a viewer such as Hyperdrive Colorspace loaded with the previous shots and eyeball it.

I think you can do this with phocus overlays... perhaps with other tethered software... You might have to convert the photo into a vector-graphic line drawing, but if you only need the relative position of landmarks, that would suffice.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

would an A5 print from your first shot do? You could find a location that aligns with some easily visible landmarks, two trees, two lampposts and so on, and use that to always start at the same spot.

I agree, when there are a few landmarks at different angles from the camera position, triangulation is the obvious approach. When the landmarks are in the image itself, then a print of that image can be used, otherwise one can specifically shoot a few images for that purpose.

Without landmarks, a GPS is accurate enough (<10m in the open, usually better).

Cheers,
Bart

[Dick Roadnight]

Without landmarks, a GPS is accurate enough (<10m in the open, usually better).
Cheers,
Bart

A GPS gives you 2 dimensions, but you would want the pictures to match in 6 dimensions (7 if you use a zoom!) zoom , so that you could fade from one picture to another in a slide show, or combine images from different seasons or years. 

[BernardLanguillier]

I believe that you have 2 issues at hand:

1. Reproduce the shooting position
2. Reproduce the framing from that position

For 1 you could use some of the high accuracy leica laser distancemeters like this one: http://ptd.leica-geosystems.com/en/Leica-DISTO-D3a_81046.htm

You could to fix 2 of them to the camera, one below, one above at given angles pointing to surrounding landscape features.

Once the position is roughly confirmed, you will need then to consider framing. For that the best solution is IMHO to align the edge/corner of the frame to a recognizable feature in the landscape while making sure that the camera is vertical.

Cheers,
Bernard

[feppe]

As Dick deduced, this is revisiting the same street scenes during different seasons - still doing feasibility assessment on the workload involved.

Bernard hit it right on the head: it's not only about framing, but also about shooting position. Using landmarks and other visual reference points in one corner of the frame and using a bubble level should give enough accuracy for the purposes of the project, as long as I duplicate the shooting location. My phone has a GPS, but given its inaccuracy and large number of shooting positions (hundreds) using one is not feasible.

A contact sheet should give enough reference for majority of cases to get to the same shooting location, especially if I use the same route on every re-visit. I already have two Hyperdrive Spaces, so a third one would be largely unnecessary - although it would allow for triple backups on the road..

One option just occurred to me - taking the same picture with my phone for rough visual reference on location, and using it along its GPS to identify the location on re-visit. Lot of fiddling on the first run, though. Have to check Android Market to see if there's a good geocaching app which would give directions based on GPS coordinates in photos.

I think you can do this with phocus overlays... perhaps with other tethered software... You might have to convert the photo into a vector-graphic line drawing, but if you only need the relative position of landmarks, that would suffice.

Do you mean there are some cameras which allow custome overlays in-camera, or are you talking about an overlay printed on a transparency, set over the LCD? If latter, not a bad idea, but due to the large number of overlays requited making and using them might get unwieldy. On the other hand, if I fashion a holder for a transparency over the LCD of my E-PL1 and switch them at each position and use the same route, that should give very accurate results.

How about this: Acquire or build a bar with two camera tripod screws and one tripod socket half-way between them. Attach this to your tripod, mount your own camera on one of the tripod screws and a second camera (even a cheap point-and-shoot, with a zoom lens) on the other. You would need to calibrate the system in a couple of ways:

1.   Mark on the dual-camera bar lines indicating exactly where the cameras are as you take the first photo, so you can mount them again pointing exactly the same direction.
2.   Note (or mark) on your main camera exactly the focal length you will take all the pictures at.
3.   Adjust the zoom lens on the P&S to match the field of view of the main camera as closely as you can, and mark that setting so you can repeat it.

When you first take a test picture, do it with each camera. The images should match pretty closely (for field of view) if your calibration is careful enough. Once you are sure you have a repeatable setup, keep a memory card with the original P&S test shot in the P&S camera, which you can display on the LCD screen to help you aim the setup for each photo in the series.

Absolutely love this idea and might use exactly this setup for some other similar ideas I have. But given this is street shooting with people in them, every single person facing me would be staring straight at the contraption Probably not ideal for "invisible" street shooting..

[JeanMichel]

Hi,

I have no information of my own, but do look at ANDRZEJ  MACIEJEWSKI's the link below.
I met Andrzej when I was researching information on William Notman and other Canadian photographers for some lectures in Ukraine and Poland. In 1999 - 2001 Andrzej rephotographed Notman's photographs of Montreal some 100 years prior. The McCord Museum, in Montreal, houses the Notman archives and published the After Notman book. Andrzej used a view camera for the work, he used 4x5 Polaroids to make the necessary geometric calculations for positioning his camera.

Here are the links to Andrzej's website (click on the After Notman tab)and that of the McCord Museum.

http://www.klotzekstudio.com/

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/

Enjoy!

Jean-Michel

[Dick Roadnight]

I think you can do this with phocus overlays... perhaps with other tethered software...

Do you mean there are some cameras which allow custome overlays in-camera, or are you talking about an overlay printed on a transparency, set over the LCD? If latter, not a bad idea, but due to the large number of overlays requited making and using them might get unwieldy. On the other hand, if I fashion a holder for a transparency over the LCD of my E-PL1 and switch them at each position and use the same route, that should give very accurate results.

phocus/view/overlays

...I had hoped that you could overlay an image on the live view (in the capture menu), but you can take a picture, display it to fill your laptop screen, check, adjust your position and tripod head, take another, making a few adjustments per minute...

There is an option to adjust opacity, so you can see both the reference image and the new image, just as you had thought was not possible...

I have just tried it, works like a dream, like a layer in Photoshop... you can use a raw picture file as your reference overlay file.

A fully geared tripod head would be handy... and a Leica Disto laser measure (I have one) would be very handy too.

I believe that you have 2 issues at hand:

1. Reproduce the shooting position
2. Reproduce the framing from that position

This is what I was on about... three dimensions specify position (latitude, longitude and height), one for up/down, one for left right, one for level, one for focal length.

There is a "scale" option in phocus/view/overlays, ...so you can overlay images taken with lenses of different focal lengths.

[feppe]

Do you mean there are some cameras which allow custome overlays in-camera, or are you talking about an overlay printed on a transparency, set over the LCD? If latter, not a bad idea, but due to the large number of overlays requited making and using them might get unwieldy. On the other hand, if I fashion a holder for a transparency over the LCD of my E-PL1 and switch them at each position and use the same route, that should give very accurate results.

phocus/view/overlays

...I had hoped that you could overlay an image on the live view (in the capture menu), but you can take a picture, check, adjust and take another.

There is an option to adjust opacity, so you can see bot the reference image and the new image, and it looks as if you can select any file.

I'm guessing you're talking about a specific camera, as none of my cameras have a customizable overlay feature.

[Dick Roadnight]

I'm guessing you're talking about a specific camera, as none of my cameras have a customizable overlay feature.

Hi, I have edited my post since you posted yours...

You can use phocus tethered with any Hasselblad back (starting at the price of a top end FF DSLR)... but there may be similar facilities on the tethered software for other cameras.

[feppe]

You can use phocus tethered with any Hasselblad back (starting at the price of a top end FF DSLR)... but there may be similar facilities on the tethered software for other cameras.

Not entirely crazy idea with a tethered netbook, although I'd need three arms as tripod is not an option The setup also doesn't pass the shooting invisibly street photography test.

I have no information of my own, but do look at ANDRZEJ  MACIEJEWSKI's the link below.
I met Andrzej when I was researching information on William Notman and other Canadian photographers for some lectures in Ukraine and Poland. In 1999 - 2001 Andrzej rephotographed Notman's photographs of Montreal some 100 years prior. The McCord Museum, in Montreal, houses the Notman archives and published the After Notman book. Andrzej used a view camera for the work, he used 4x5 Polaroids to make the necessary geometric calculations for positioning his camera.

Here are the links to Andrzej's website (click on the After Notman tab)and that of the McCord Museum.

http://www.klotzekstudio.com/

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/

Enjoy!

I did enjoy, thanks for the link. Very impressive project, executed well with fascinating results.

[elf]

What accuracy do you need? GPS can give you 2 centimeter resolution: http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/signal-processing/news/precise-gps-orbital-data-igs-current-status-9389.

Traditional surveying and navigation techniques can probably get you within a few inches.

[feppe]

What accuracy do you need? GPS can give you 2 centimeter resolution: http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/signal-processing/news/precise-gps-orbital-data-igs-current-status-9389.

Traditional surveying and navigation techniques can probably get you within a few inches.

All of the civilian GPSs I've used are orders of magnitude less accurate. I didn't read the link, but they might be referring to specialized surveying models which are stationary, and in any case require line-of-sight to more satellites to get to that level of accuracy which takes time and is complicated further by buildings. In the city one might not even work depending on how many satellites you have LOS to.

[AFairley]

I'm not sure if this is feasible for where you plan to set up.  If on a sidewalk or similar, take a hammer and small chisel and (surreptitiously) put a distinctive chip in it.  If on an asphalt path or road, drive a large nail with a washer into the surface (surveyors so this all the time to set reference points).  Use a plumb bob off your tripod center post to set up exactly over it.  You also want to triangulate your position so you can get back to the approximate location easily to find your exact point.  Another way you could go in the right setting is to measure from a couple fixed objects with a tape measure, set up at your intersection (e.g. midway between the lamppost and corner of the building -- I'm not sure how much flexibility as to where to set up in the first place.

[feppe]

I'm not sure if this is feasible for where you plan to set up.  If on a sidewalk or similar, take a hammer and small chisel and (surreptitiously) put a distinctive chip in it.  If on an asphalt path or road, drive a large nail with a washer into the surface (surveyors so this all the time to set reference points).  Use a plumb bob off your tripod center post to set up exactly over it.  You also want to triangulate your position so you can get back to the approximate location easily to find your exact point.  Another way you could go in the right setting is to measure from a couple fixed objects with a tape measure, set up at your intersection (e.g. midway between the lamppost and corner of the building -- I'm not sure how much flexibility as to where to set up in the first place.

Not gonna pound any nails or chip sidewalks at a World Heritage Site Would take way too much time in any case..

[AFairley]

Not gonna pound any nails or chip sidewalks at a World Heritage Site

Oops!

[Craig Lamson]

Why not do it the old fashioned way...draw the outline of the scene on a clear piece of film and tape it to the LDC on the back of the camera.

I can't even begin to count the number if times I took half a 4x5 film sleeve and a sharpie, and taped the rusult to the groundglass of my trusty 4x5...

Dang sight cheaper that the laser range finders

[AFairley]

Why not do it the old fashioned way...draw the outline of the scene on a clear piece of film and tape it to the LDC on the back of the camera.

I can't even begin to count the number if times I took half a 4x5 film sleeve and a sharpie, and taped the rusult to the groundglass of my trusty 4x5...

Dang sight cheaper that the laser range finders

Beat me to it, Craig.  I was going to suggest doing that with a LCD protector film over the rear LCD.  Save and reuse as needed.