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Author Topic: M9 Sensor problems  (Read 4747 times)

maxgruzen

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M9 Sensor problems
« on: August 26, 2010, 11:24:36 pm »

Check out the interesting conversation going on at the Leica Forum wed site about a number of people having cracked sensor problems.
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schrodingerscat

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2010, 12:44:00 am »

Check out the interesting conversation going on at the Leica Forum wed site about a number of people having cracked sensor problems.

Not cracked sensors, cracked IR filters, as per Herr Daniels of Leica.

20 or so claims so far, statistically insignificant with a likelihood of environmental causes in quite a few of those. Leica's been unable to reproduce the supposed problem.

What's funny is that by claiming repeatedly and loudly that this is a systematic engineering defect, they are prolonging the repair time of their own equipment as Leica is forced to inspect and test each one coming in for repair to try and find the root cause. Which causes them to complain about how long it takes.
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250swb

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2010, 03:41:24 am »


What's funny is that by claiming repeatedly and loudly that this is a systematic engineering defect, they are prolonging the repair time of their own equipment as Leica is forced to inspect and test each one coming in for repair to try and find the root cause. Which causes them to complain about how long it takes.

I don't think its funny, mine was one of the cameras with the broken glass. FYI the delay in repair time is nothing to do with owners complaining that it is an engineering defect (although what else could it be??). The delay in repair time is because Leica sat on their hands so long they ran out of spare parts. It is not because Leica are testing to find the cause (they have their own cameras for that), they are just replacing sensors. The irony being that Leica must have known long before anybody else of a trend for this type of repair, so even if they didn't know what had caused it they could have anticipated needing some parts.

So to add some salient facts, no Leica do not know what has caused the problem. There is no correlation between engineering factors or usage that can explain the cause. It is limited to a small number of cameras (possibly 30 at most) built before December 09. Mr Daniel promised a fast priority turnaround for any broken cameras, but they ran out of spare parts, and just as they got some new parts Leica went on holiday for two weeks.

So, would you not think things could have been done better perhaps, a little more organisation perhaps, some foresight maybe? So I've got my camera back and the away time was 31 days, about average for the recent spike in claims. It is normally expected to be a five day turnaround, so thats why people are complaining.


Steve

Richowens

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2010, 11:38:00 am »

Steve,

 Perhaps a little more patience on your part.  ???
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250swb

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 04:35:45 am »

Steve,

 Perhaps a little more patience on your part.  ???

 ???

schrodingerscat

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 01:57:25 pm »

I don't think its funny, mine was one of the cameras with the broken glass. FYI the delay in repair time is nothing to do with owners complaining that it is an engineering defect (although what else could it be??). The delay in repair time is because Leica sat on their hands so long they ran out of spare parts. It is not because Leica are testing to find the cause (they have their own cameras for that), they are just replacing sensors. The irony being that Leica must have known long before anybody else of a trend for this type of repair, so even if they didn't know what had caused it they could have anticipated needing some parts.

So to add some salient facts, no Leica do not know what has caused the problem. There is no correlation between engineering factors or usage that can explain the cause. It is limited to a small number of cameras (possibly 30 at most) built before December 09. Mr Daniel promised a fast priority turnaround for any broken cameras, but they ran out of spare parts, and just as they got some new parts Leica went on holiday for two weeks.

So, would you not think things could have been done better perhaps, a little more organisation perhaps, some foresight maybe? So I've got my camera back and the away time was 31 days, about average for the recent spike in claims. It is normally expected to be a five day turnaround, so thats why people are complaining.


Steve


I ment funny in a literary sense, not literal. Nor was it aimed at you or anyone else in particular.

What is your connection to Leica that would give you privy to this sort of information, and how much experience have you had with camera manufacturers in general which would give you insight as to engineering, manufacturing and repair practices? Where did you get your 'salient facts'?

Where did you get the 5 day turnaround expectation figure? Are you also including shipping times to and from Germany? I know of no manufacturer who routinely completes repairs in that time frame. Two to six weeks is more the average, with much longer a possibility if there are backordered parts. Which is also becoming more common. The Canon PCS program does provide for expedited repairs and shipping, but this is an extra service that you pay for and is only available to qualified users. And even then, prone to delays if there is a part shortage.

And yes, if there seems to be a trend in complaints, the manufacturers will study the submitted equipment to try and determine the cause. Why replace possible defective parts with the same? If a part does prove to be problematic, then it will have to be reengineered and the manufacturing line reconfigured. Nikon had a camera that they changed the main circuit board design five times in the first year. Needless to say, this takes time.

If they can't duplicate the problem, this makes to process much more difficult.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 02:31:42 pm »

The EU Canon CPS service is free, 3 day turnaround. I wouldn't consider Leica for pro usage period given their turnaround times. Not even in the question.
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maxgruzen

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 09:46:57 pm »

Jeez  schrodingersc, Chill out a little. The man has a right to be upset that his brand new $ 10,000 or more investment in a camera is sitting in germany and not in his hands. If it was me, I'd be angry. My puny little $ 2,000 Canon just keeps plugging along.
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schrodingerscat

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 04:38:27 pm »

Jeez  schrodingersc, Chill out a little. The man has a right to be upset that his brand new $ 10,000 or more investment in a camera is sitting in germany and not in his hands. If it was me, I'd be angry. My puny little $ 2,000 Canon just keeps plugging along.

I'd be unhappy as well. My M9 doesn't have this problem, but may have the battery drain problem and will go in sometime at the end of the year. How long it takes is how long it takes, just so the job is done right. And no, I'm not happy about it. I see no reason to be angry.

My only intent in the initial response was to get some objectivity injected into the conversation. Leica are no worse or better than other companies in regards to service. As some Leitz equipment has to go to Germany for repair, this will impact the overall time involved. There are also differences in experience from one service area to the next. Again, this is not limited to any one company. I have to deal on an almost daily basis with unhappy customers with gear that has to go in for warranty service to Canon, Nikon, and Olympus. Another consideration is that Leica do all repairs in-house, so their case load can be quite hight at times. Each camera that comes in goes in the que.

This is based on twenty plus years in the camera service industry, including a year with a major manufacturer. As he had presented 'facts' that didn't quite jibe with with my experience, was just wondering where they were coming from. I'm always open to alternative empirical knowledge.
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pcunite

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 05:02:20 pm »

Leica does not make sensors. It stands to reason they can't make for speedy interpretations of owner's problems.
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250swb

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 04:05:06 am »

What is your connection to Leica that would give you privy to this sort of information, and how much experience have you had with camera manufacturers in general which would give you insight as to engineering, manufacturing and repair practices? Where did you get your 'salient facts'?

From the internet, from Herr Stefan Daniel, from 32 years of Leica ownership. Sorry, but if thats not enough I don't have any other information even if you continue the interrogation.

Steve

schrodingerscat

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Re: M9 Sensor problems
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2010, 02:30:19 pm »

From the internet, from Herr Stefan Daniel, from 32 years of Leica ownership. Sorry, but if thats not enough I don't have any other information even if you continue the interrogation.

Steve


Interrogation? "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition"

Got my first M3 in '74. After ten years with a variety of other gear, I'm glad to be back with a rangefinder. As far as the intertubes are concerned...I'll let Mr Daniel wrap this up.

 Originally Posted by Stefan Daniel  View Post
Dear M9 Users,

Please let me update you on the broken cover glass situation. We at Leica are aware of the issue and the current reported isolated instances are a very low proportion of the cameras delivered.
Our colleagues both in R&D and QA are investigating and have not yet determined a root cause, nor it was possible to provoke a sensor to crack in our labs (temperature shock, heat, cold, humidity, mechanical bending etc.).
Cameras found to have this fault are having the sensor assembly replaced as a priority (free of charge of course) and our Customer Service will complete the repair in the shortest delays possible.

With my best regards,

Stefan Daniel, Leica Camera AG

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