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Author Topic: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production  (Read 42259 times)

thomasmoran

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Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« on: August 15, 2010, 07:46:32 pm »

I'm about to make the purchase of two 44 inch printers to replace my 24 and 44 inch HP Z3100's. I print mainly on breathing color lyve canvas and was all set on the 9900 as many people I respect swear by it. However after reading Scott Martins review and talking to few people who swear by the x300 series from canon i want to pick the brains of some people here and see if anyone has any experience with both machines for canvas printing.

My reasons for choosing the epson are as follows:

1. Speed. They seem to hum along a good bit faster than my Z3100's.
2. Big ink tanks. The 700ml tanks are a good idea at the volumes were doing and the per ML cost is a lot less that the 130ml cartridges in the 3100
3. The epson cutting blade cuts the canvas no problem at least the one on the showroom floor at my vendors did when we tested the breathing color lyve on it but I wonder if this is only because it was a brand new blade and in actual fact it will go dull and start jamming after a short amount of time when used in a production environment?
4. The way the epson loads with no spindle is a killer feature for the tight space of our production room. No need to ever roll it out from the wall is a big plus.
5. The epson will keep track of the remanning material on my rolls which is a big deal in that would mean no more prints where I end up a few inches short on the end.


But if anyone here has moved from a 9900 to a 8300 for canvas production and is happy or sad about it I would love to hear from you.

Thanks for your time.

Thomas
 
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Rob Reiter

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 09:37:08 pm »

My 8300 will cut canvas, but I choose to do it manually to keep the dust down inside the printer. It can print a bar code after each print to keep track of the remaining material. The 700 ml cartridges are certainly the way to go, even with a printer as parsimonious with ink as these are. There is a spindle, but front loading is easy. I don't mind it. These are good printers. I don't like the Lyve canvas because of it's bad curl after I coat it, but I run a lot of Chromata White with no trouble.
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Farmer

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 11:08:03 pm »

We cut canvas on our *900 series Epson printers no problem.  We don't do heaps of it, and it will become blunt faster than cutting paper, but you'll certainly get plenty of life out of it.
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jgbowerman

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 09:32:40 am »

As for print quality, between Epson and Canon, you will be happy with either one, although some might argue otherwise, it is pretty much neck and neck. Both printers do everything you are looking to do.

I went through this decision-making process myself and chose Canon for a few reasons. One, I live in a climate where humidity levels can be low at times increasing the potential for inkjet clogs. Epson users bring up the issue of inkjet clogs frequently, causing me to lean towards Canon. When looking further into operational recommendations, Canon gives an operational humidity range of 10 to 80 percent while Espson's is 40 to 60 (I am told by ColorHQ it is better to maintain humidity between 40 and 60 even with the iPF). In the event of printhead replacement due to irreparable clogging issues, Canon's printheads are easier to replace, and now less expensive on the x300 series as compared to the x100.

Another finding that had me leaning towards Canon is the consensus Canon iPF printers waste substantially less ink than the equivalent Epson Stylus. I can't find numbers on this consensus, but nowhere do I find anyone trying to refute it, either.

Then there is the upfront cost of the printer, the 8300 will cost less on today's USA market by about 1500 dollars.

I don't print on Canvas, so I can't help on this question. I am told the cutting blade will go dull cutting canvas necessitating periodic replacement, I do not know if Epson's blade is more durable or easy to replace, but cost and ease of replacing blades is something worth looking into given your needs. The dust created by cutting canvas will necessitate cleaning the platen more frequently, and it is easy to do so with Canon. With Epson, I assume dust from cutting canvas is no more an issue than with Canon, but something you might inquire about as well.

I am a satisfied customer with the 8300. I have had no problems, it is easy to use. Canon's printer plugin is user friendly. Lastly, I am told Canon is also more user-friendly when it comes to profiling third-party papers (I was told this by Hahnemühle tech support).

Hope this helps, best of luck!

Greg

 
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routlaw

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 12:10:16 pm »

I will throw in my two cents worth, having just recently converted from Epson to Canon LF printing and also because I do quite a bit of canvas printing though not on BC canvas. My comparisons for the most part are not directly with the 9900 however so take this for what it is worth.

Make no mistake I did some serious hand wringing before making the decision to change to Canon. I agree with most of what Greg stated above with a few exceptions. Price, at the time (July 23rd) I purchased the 8300 was literally half the price of the Epson if not less. I paid $3000 delivered for the 8300 due to rebates, trade-in for my old 9600 and discounts from the vendor. Just as important however Canon delivers the printer with 330 ML ink carts compared to the Epson's measly 100 ML carts, so in other words right off the bat at the time of purchase with the Epson you also have to belly up to the bar and spend at least another $1500 for more ink since it takes over half the carts included just to prime the heads and lines. At the time of my purchase Epson had discontinued the rebate program, maybe that has changed and they sure did not have a trade in value for my old printer. At the time I purchased you could literally buy two of these Canons for the price of one Epson. Thus far it does appear the Canon uses ink in a much more miserly way compared to Epson.

Both printers do produce excellent prints, but would have to disagree somewhat with Greg's conclusion based upon comparative prints I had on hand or made. I thought the 8300 to be in some areas a noticeable improvement over the 9900, it was not huge as in the Canon blew the Epson out of the water but the differences seemed pretty obvious to me. B&W prints seemed subjectively better, but where I really saw the difference was in reds and greens. Here the Canon seemed to have more clarity, depth, and gamut and as Scott Martin pointed out its ability to render shadow detail is fairly remarkable.

Personally I still prefer the Epson user interface, both at the control panel and software level although the print plug in module is very nice. Canons documentation is abominable IMO though made up in some degree by the fact its almost impossible to get a bad print off this thing. In fact its hard to not get a stunning print from it. And the ability to swap back and forth between MK and PK inks on the 8300 is still vastly superior to the 9900.

While I have used the onboard rotary cutter for canvas on the 8300 I still prefer to cut it the old fashion way, probably a paranoid hangover from my Epson 9600. Julian Mussi at Spectraflow in the Bay area where I bought mine did say he felt the Epson cutter is a bit more heavy duty than the one found in the Canon. But cutters are fairly cheap and easy to replace, so I looked at this part as a non issue.

So on the whole I have no regrets about buying the Canon. Effectively it appears Canon laved one over the bow to Epson.

Hope this helps.

Rob

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jgbowerman

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 02:37:09 pm »

Quote
Both printers do produce excellent prints, but would have to disagree somewhat with Greg's conclusion based upon comparative prints I had on hand or made. I thought the 8300 to be in some areas a noticeable improvement over the 9900, it was not huge as in the Canon blew the Epson out of the water but the differences seemed pretty obvious to me. B&W prints seemed subjectively better, but where I really saw the difference was in reds and greens.

The folks at ColorHQ would concur with Rob's observations. Epson is no longer looking over their shoulder at Canon... Canon is going stride for stride and then some.

Greg
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thomasmoran

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 03:44:23 pm »

I would like to thank you all for taking the time and sharing your thoughts on this topic. Your inputs have made me organize a test tomorrow at Canon Canada of the 8300 and I will report back as to what I observe. By end of this week I will pull the trigger and put down on either one of these guys... Thanks again for all the input.

Thomas
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tastar

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 10:35:06 pm »

OK - we're an Epson dealer so you can assume that my opinions are somewhat biased (but I don't think that they are). We can sell Canon, too, but because anyone can sell them, and because Canon just gives them away to get market share or whatever, we stay away from them. The reason that I'm responding to this post is that I just can't understand the fascination with Canon. There are just too many downsides that seem to get overlooked, and I just can't understand the enthusiasm.

Like the fact that Canon has introduced new wide format printer models in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 (maybe they've finally gotten it right). And, the Canon website currently lists 10 different wide format models as graphic arts printers and an additional 10 models as general use printers. As a dealer, how could one conceivably stock ink and print heads for all of the former and current models? My guess is that dealers don't stock much of the inks because they can't afford to keep the enormous variety of them on their shelves. And, since Canon and their dealers are giving printers away, I would guess that they are counting on making their money on selling the supplies, because they need to make money somewhere.

Re. the supplies, for the IPF8300, a set of 12 700ml ink cartridges sells for about $3,300. And, print heads for the printer, which Luminous Landscape posters have said may be required as frequently as twice a year, sell for about 1,100 per pair. This compares to a cost of about $2,200 for a set of 11 700ml cartridges for an Epson 9900, with no additional cost for print heads. Even if the Epson isn't as frugal (a review on Luminous Landscape and our experience in our demo room both indicate that they are frugal, but who knows how this really compares to Canon), it sure costs a lot less to keep an Epson going when replenishing supplies. Getting a great deal up-front doesn't necessarily mean that you will be getting a great deal over the life of the purchase (remember, they need to make money somewhere).

A couple of our customers have Canons and haven't had good experiences. One, where we replaced an Onyx RIP PC that drives 4 different printers, just put in a new IPF9000, to replace an IPF9100S that had to be less than 2 years old. They went from a 12 color Canon to an 8 color and told me that the 12 color IPF9100S was just too sensitive and picky. And, that they never really got much use out of it. They stuck with Canon because they are one of the large number of Canon resellers in our area and can get them super cheap. A second customer has a new IPF8300 that was sold as a good graphic arts proofing solution - and it just isn't working in that application even though a different local Canon dealer guaranteed that it would work (this dealer didn't know the industry and didn't have a clue about the capabilities of the printer). So, my little bit of experience with Canon printers has not been very favorable.

The final point, Epson is very selective about who they allow to sell their printers - they expect a lot from their dealer network, re. knowledge of their product and the dealer's knowledge of the businesses that they sell to. If someone buys an Epson, they are more likely to get very solid support from the dealer that it was purchased from. Since my company can sell Canon's, since our local copier companies can sell them, since anyone who sells a 69.00 Canon desktop can sell one, I don't believe that the level of support that you can get by buying an Epson printer will necessarily be there.

The feedback that I've been seeing here re. Canon vs. Epson has been bugging me for months. Maybe it's a mistake to do this post, but I believe that there is more to making this decision than has typically been presented. In any case, to all of you out there who are still deciding, here is a relatively new perspective to make the choice more difficult than it already is. Good hunting.

Tony
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Rob Reiter

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 11:15:29 pm »

My reply to Tastar is based on three years using a Canon 8100 an about 5 months on my 8300, after 6 years of the Epson 9600/9800. I used them all in a commercial fine art printing environment. As far as support issues go, I got good support from Epson and I needed it more. I've had excellent support from Canon, and I've needed it less. I've had no problems with ink supplies on either printer. I also feel the Canon uses less in, and certainly wastes less. Image quality is excellent on my 8300, better with my profiles than I was getting on my 9800 running the ImagePrint RIP. The plug-in is dead simple to use and makes use of 16 bit information in an image.

I wouldn't expect to see major image quality differences between the 8300 and the Epson 9900, although their gamuts will obviously vary slightly. But in plain terms of reliability, the Canons win, hands down, over my experience with Epson. I replaced the heads once (under warranty) with my 8100. The 8300 heads are about $900 for the pair and they require replacement after about 4000ml of ink goes through them. That's a lot of ink. If I had to replace them once a year (which I haven't) I'd consider it a draw compared to the ink costs associated with cleaning Epson heads. I typically went through 1-5 cleaning cycles per day on my 9800 since I printed exclusively with matte rag papers and their associated dust. On the 8100 I have had exactly two head clogs in three years and each cleaned up with one head cleaning. No clogs yet on the 8300. The aggravation and time wasted cleaning the Epsons was as bad as the wasted ink, so even if I spend as much buying heads (which I haven't) I've had zero aggravation. And those 330 ml cartridges that came with my 8300? After five months I've only replaced three of them and am showing 20-40% ink in all of the others.

Speedwise, the Canons are about 3 times faster than the 9800. I know the 9900 is also faster but I don't know if it's that fast.

Check this and other forums for user issues on Epson and Canon printers. While no printer is trouble-free, I think you'll see very quickly which brand is drawing the most comments about problems.
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shewhorn

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2010, 03:05:31 am »

Re. the supplies, for the IPF8300, a set of 12 700ml ink cartridges sells for about $3,300. And, print heads for the printer, which Luminous Landscape posters have said may be required as frequently as twice a year, sell for about 1,100 per pair.

Are you a US dealer? If so your numbers are off on the heads. The IPF8300 heads retail for $450 per head. The street price should be less than that (I paid about $505 for an IPF6100 head when the retail price was $600).
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Bullfrog

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2010, 08:30:52 am »

Ill chip in my 2c as a relatively new person (in printers).

I looked at Epson first because they have brand equity (kind of the same way facial tissues here in Canada are called "Kleenex").

But I bought Canon because I wanted a quality product, and didn't want to go broke paying for it.  The cost of Ink in an Epson printer is a pet peeve of mine, its clearly where all manufacturers make their profit but in the desktop printer wars, the Epson ink cartridges have a terrible reputation (chips that automatically determine they are empty etc).

It makes one kind of cynical, in a world where every other form of technology depreciates faster than an Edsel- how can ink still cost so much?
 ???

Anyway,  tastar says Canon is buying market share - my response to him is "GOOD FOR ME".
 :)

Every market fragments and what was once a closed monopoly is now open season.  I have had excellent service from Canon (on my camera gear) and so far, no issues with my 6100.  There may be minute differences in print quality on photographic paper (Epson had /has more dots per inch) but on canvas and fine art textured - its a moot point.

I would certainly buy another Canon printer and if things go well, I will.  Given the speed at which technology advances, I expect manufacturers to continually update their offerings.

Cheers

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natas

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2010, 10:48:04 am »

I do a very large amount of canvas on my 7900, most 20x30's. I was in the same situation as you, the canon or epson. I went to a local dealer and after watching both machines work and seeing the features I went with the epson.

Here are my reasons:

1) No need to change print heads on the epson. The cost for replacements on the canon were way more than I wanted to pay
2) The cutter on the epson is very nice, and where it is positioned cuts down on the paper/canvas dust
3) The roll feature is very very nice. You can change a roll of paper in literally 2 minutes. This is important for me because I switch a lot between 17 and 24 inch paper along with canvas and other papers.

I lucked out and got the 7900 when there was a $1000 rebate (got the check a month or so ago)


If none of those things matter to you then you can't go wrong with either printer. They both produce awesome prints.
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T_om

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2010, 07:10:30 pm »

The final point, Epson is very selective about who they allow to sell their printers - they expect a lot from their dealer network, re. knowledge of their product and the dealer's knowledge of the businesses that they sell to.

They obviously don't require their dealers to know squat about their competition however.

Tom
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Sujit Gugale

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 12:10:08 am »

Well I have been selling large formats since last 20 years now, since the days of DMP's and I have some remarks here
* comparision has to be done Apple to Apple, which is most important. Every brand has their own engine and color management and when it comes to really damn good printing few points are to be taken note off.
- Which kind of inks are being used , as you all know Dye ink will be more vibrant then pigment ink. However dye is not water resistant and long life to light compared to pigment inks which are quite good water resistant and have life upto more then 100 years on certain medias.
- What kind of medias are being used and if those medias are profiled with respective machines being used.
- Which Rip is being used and all the parameters are calibrated with respect to that perticular printer.
- Resolution and how the original file is which is printed also makes a difference in the output.

in short printing is a wide field and I agree type of printer may make a difference in the quality of printouts, but at the end it is more important on the knowledge of the user
how best he can exploit that perticulare machine to get the best results.

Every machine in the world, has some plus and some negative points, and one must first understand the limitations of a product before buying it rather then looking at the good points, because that is were the operator wil have to more stress on and check if he has the ability to overcome those drawbacks of the products to generate good quality prints.

Finally, I have been selling HP for a long time before I left it in 2009, I would request every user to check if he takes 100 prints of the same file with same media, same environment and same machine, in one go and check if the color consistency remains the same in every print, then it makes sense.........Can anybody give me some brief on this.

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jgbowerman

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 08:38:54 am »

Quote
Finally, I have been selling HP for a long time before I left it in 2009, I would request every user to check if he takes 100 prints of the same file with same media, same environment and same machine, in one go and check if the color consistency remains the same in every print, then it makes sense.........Can anybody give me some brief on this.

I have not made 100 prints of the same file with the same media in the same environment on the same machine, but since using the iPF8300 the past year, I have rejected only one print because of an inkjet failure. The reject was a 28 x 42 inch image on roll paper, and it had a 2-3mm splat of brownish ink (not good!). I have printed several of the same files several times and have never appreciated any color variation or problems otherwise. I do maintain a humidity at 45 to 50% at all times as I am told this will reduce inkjet clog formation and result in a longer life for the print heads. I have never moved the printer from its current location, but I should add, the reject occurred before initiating humidity controls in an environment that can become very dry at times. I am very happy with the iPF8300. Besides print quality, I have come to appreciate the 40GB hardrive where I store the images most often printed. It is a very handy option! I also find the user-friendly improvements over the x100 series of Canon printers another substantial benefit. I have not used HP nor Epson, so I can't honestly compare further and only go by what I have read. I do appreciate a tad of clipping in the magenta range of hues (sunrise/sunset hues one loves to see in the clouds) as where I understand Epson does have a slightly larger color gamut in that direction.
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Mark R.

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 10:48:48 am »

I really appreciate the imput from all the users. I am going through what has been discribed in this thread (deciding which brand to buy). Epson 9900 vs. Cannon IPF8300 vs. HP Z3200PS.

It is really confusing when you talk to dealers who carry all the above brands and hear polar opposite on which brand they recommend. It seems that really hate or really love one particular model, not just this is a little better in this area etc.. Does any one know of any financial gain dealers have to push one brand over another? Sales quota to keep printer lines, or dealer/ saleman spifs at certain times of the year?

Also most of the blogs talk about and compare Epson vs. Cannon, and don't reall talk about HP Z3200ps. Are the similar or differant in uses?

Thank you for your help
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JohnHeerema

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 12:33:56 pm »

The strong opinions are quite interesting, aren't they? Cognitive psychologists call this confirmation bias - the tendency to unconsciously filter incoming information through our personal biases. We're all subject to it, even if we think we're unbiased. If you have a personal connection with a particular manufacturer, you can't help observing their products differently than the products that you don't have a connection to.

I remember that when I ordered a Canon IPF6300, the things I read seemed to favour the Canon. Later, when I ordered an Epson 9900, the things I read seemed to favour the Epson. At a conscious level, I knew that the differences between the brands were minute, and I really thought that I was an unbiased observer - but when I looked at my own cognitive process, I had to admit that I wasn't really immune to the process after all. That's why folks like the testers at dpreview follow the exact same test protocol for all of the gear in a particular category.

My own thought here would be to look at your local dealer, and what's available locally for support for each of the printers you are looking at, and use that to inform your buying decision. Each of the printers in this category is known to shine a little bit in a particular area - the new Canons have more gamut in the deep blue-purple range, while the Epsons might have a shade more micro-detail. The HPs, although sometimes thought of as being a generation behind the others, have a nice media profiling feature.  For most people and most prints though, you'd be hard-pressed to tell which print came from which printer.
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Mark R.

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 01:08:06 pm »

Thank you for your response.

Is anyone aware of when and if new updates of these printers are scheduled or rumored to be released?

I would hate to buy a printer just to find out that next month a new super enhanced version was being released!

Thanks!
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neile

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 01:39:41 pm »

The x300 line of printers from Canon is quite new, it's unlikely they'll have newer ones in the near future.

Neil
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Light Seeker

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Re: Epson 9900 vs. Canon ipf8300 for canvas production
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 05:28:46 pm »

There is an extremely well written review that you should study. Before you do I suggest you list and prioritize what's important to you (e.g. a decision matrix). Chances are you will be able score each of the vendors based on this evaluation, and have a good sense as to which direction best supports your requirements. Input from the forum would likely serve to validate what you've learned (or vice-versa!).

http://www.on-sight.com/2010/04/25/canon-x300-printer-review/

Terry.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 05:30:34 pm by Light Seeker »
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