ColorPort, iSis and Atkinson Target

[Mark Paulson]

I just received a loaner iSis from X-rite that works correctly. I am now able to connect to ColorPort with no problem. Now the Bill Atkinson 1728 target 2 page target for the iSis the chart will not work. The iSis pulls them in about half way and the kicks it out with an error. The charts work perfectly with Measure Tool. Any ideas?

[terrywyse]

I just received a loaner iSis from X-rite that works correctly. I am now able to connect to ColorPort with no problem. Now the Bill Atkinson 1728 target 2 page target for the iSis the chart will not work. The iSis pulls them in about half way and the kicks it out with an error. The charts work perfectly with Measure Tool. Any ideas?

You know the Measure Tool and ColorPort charts are not interchangeable, right?

I don't know the specifics of Bill's 1728 patch target but for Measure Tool you will need a proper "reference" file for your instrument and chart layout. That you obviously already have.

For ColorPort, you must import a "Target XML" file into ColorPort's Target Manager before you can use the chart.

Lastly, you must make sure you print the correct version. There will (or should) be two different versions, one for Measure Tool and one for ColorPort. IOW, you can't print the Measure Tool chart and expect to measure it in ColorPort or visa-versa (note: there are SOME charts that can be measured with either tool but these are usually custom hand-built charts and are very rare).

Regards,
Terry

[digitaldog]

I’m not really sure why one would want to go through the hassle of converting Bill’s targets for MeasureTool to work in ColorPort (the two produce the same net results), but it is doable.

You’ll need ColorThink. You have to take Bill’s target, ideally on one page and crop out everything but the patches. Then you can resample, using Nearest Neighbor such that you end up with a file in Photoshop where one color patch is one pixel. So if the target were 30x100 patches, you’d resample to 30x100 pixels. Then you can import into ColorThink and build a Color List. That list can be imported into ColorPort to build a target and of course it will measure that target if you do everything correctly.

Or just use MeasureTool with the existing target.

[Mark Paulson]

You know the Measure Tool and ColorPort charts are not interchangeable, right?

I don't know the specifics of Bill's 1728 patch target but for Measure Tool you will need a proper "reference" file for your instrument and chart layout. That you obviously already have.

For ColorPort, you must import a "Target XML" file into ColorPort's Target Manager before you can use the chart.

Lastly, you must make sure you print the correct version. There will (or should) be two different versions, one for Measure Tool and one for ColorPort. IOW, you can't print the Measure Tool chart and expect to measure it in ColorPort or visa-versa (note: there are SOME charts that can be measured with either tool but these are usually custom hand-built charts and are very rare).

Regards,
Terry

Thanks Terry. I did load the Atkinson XML file and it shows up correctly in ColorPort. I downloaded the files again and there are only three pertinent files.  Two separate files for page 1 and 2 and also a file that includes both files on one sheet. I found nothing that differentiates from Measure tool and ColorPort.

Mark

[terrywyse]

Just to add to what I already wrote......

I confirmed that Bill Atkinson is using a single chart for both Measure Tool and ColorPort (nice trick Bill!). You would still obviously need to load the reference (.txt) file for using in Measure Tool and import the target (.xml) file for use with ColorPort.

Mr. Paulson, when you say "iSis pulls them in about half way and the kicks it out with an error", are you saying it errors out after *measuring* half the chart before refjecting it...or is it erroring out pretty much immediately when you insert the chart? Just to clarify, when you first insert a chart into the iSis, first thing it has to do is find the x/y position of chart recognition bar (the black bar running horizontally above the color patches). It will pull the chart in a few inches looking for this bar. If it does not find it or is in a position that is out of tolerance, it will kick it back out. On the other hand, after it finds it, it should proceed to measure the patches. Both pieces of software will give you visual feedback of the patches as it's measuring. My question is, does it actually start measuring the patches for several inches or does it kick the chart out before it even starts measuring the patches?

If it IS measuring several rows of patches before kicking the chart out, then its an alignment issue usually caused by a chart that wasn't printed at exactly 100% scaling. If it's kicking it out before it starts to measure patches, then you need to check how you're trimming the chart. I've found the iSis to actually be fairly tolerant to trimming errors (1/8" extra around the cut lines shouldn't be a problem)

Let us know how it's going. The iSis is a great instrument. I think you'll love once you get these issues worked out.

Terry

[terrywyse]

I’m not really sure why one would want to go through the hassle of converting Bill’s targets for MeasureTool to work in ColorPort (the two produce the same net results), but it is doable.

Pros/cons to both programs. I find it somewhat easier to build custom charts in ColorPort since you simply have to import a CSV file to create the reference values. Measure Tool is a bit fussier in this regard.

Colorport exports more file formats with different data types. If you use MonacoPROFILER like I do, ColorPort is about the only game in town if you want to import into that profiling app.

On the other hand, there's one thing I like about Measure Tool with the iSis specifically is that it allows you to capture both "No Filter" and "UVcut" measurements with a single pass of the chart through the iSis. I use that feature quite a bit. And, of course, Measure Tool lets you look at the measurement data in different ways (density, dot gain, gradation, etc.) which ColorPort doesn't do....yet.

You can also "hack" ColorPort a bit if you want to push the chart layout (patch sizes, chart length, etc.) past the default limits. I've never found a way to do that in Measure Tool. It's REAL ANNOYING to have an iSis XL and to be restricted to roughly 2,450 patches per page (about 18" long as I recall) whereas ColorPort, even "un-hacked", will allow more than that. For a good example of what can be done, check out Bill Atkinson's "bowling alley" ramp he set up for his DTP70 and those crazy-long charts he's used. I've not tested the limit of the iSisXL but I've done 24" long charts with it without an issue. The risk of going longer is you start running into alignment issues....it's no fun getting into about 32" of a 36" long chart only to have it fail!

You’ll need ColorThink. You have to take Bill’s target, ideally on one page and crop out everything but the patches. Then you can resample, using Nearest Neighbor such that you end up with a file in Photoshop where one color patch is one pixel. So if the target were 30x100 patches, you’d resample to 30x100 pixels. Then you can import into ColorThink and build a Color List. That list can be imported into ColorPort to build a target and of course it will measure that target if you do everything correctly.

Nah....just take the Measure Tool reference text file, open it in Excel, delete all but the CMYK or RGB device value columns and export it as a CSV file. In ColorPort, just go to "Create Target", create a new target name and import the CSV file. Bingo!
By using Photoshop, you're also taking a chance that the device values may get rounded or otherwise come out different than the original reference/device values. I've had that happen before.

Regards,
Terry

[Mark Paulson]

Just to add to what I already wrote......

I confirmed that Bill Atkinson is using a single chart for both Measure Tool and ColorPort (nice trick Bill!). You would still obviously need to load the reference (.txt) file for using in Measure Tool and import the target (.xml) file for use with ColorPort.

Mr. Paulson, when you say "iSis pulls them in about half way and the kicks it out with an error", are you saying it errors out after *measuring* half the chart before refjecting it...or is it erroring out pretty much immediately when you insert the chart? Just to clarify, when you first insert a chart into the iSis, first thing it has to do is find the x/y position of chart recognition bar (the black bar running horizontally above the color patches). It will pull the chart in a few inches looking for this bar. If it does not find it or is in a position that is out of tolerance, it will kick it back out. On the other hand, after it finds it, it should proceed to measure the patches. Both pieces of software will give you visual feedback of the patches as it's measuring. My question is, does it actually start measuring the patches for several inches or does it kick the chart out before it even starts measuring the patches?

If it IS measuring several rows of patches before kicking the chart out, then its an alignment issue usually caused by a chart that wasn't printed at exactly 100% scaling. If it's kicking it out before it starts to measure patches, then you need to check how you're trimming the chart. I've found the iSis to actually be fairly tolerant to trimming errors (1/8" extra around the cut lines shouldn't be a problem)

Let us know how it's going. The iSis is a great instrument. I think you'll love once you get these issues worked out.

Terry

Terry thanks for the rapid responses. Mr. Paulson died a few year back..my name is Mark  I have the Atkinson XML file loaded in ColorPort and  I insert the target when ColorPort is ready.  It pulls the target in about half way without stopping and then kicks it out. I don't remember the exact message. I am not trimming the chart. I printed it directly from CS4 using the Canon print plug-in on Letter size sheets. I didn't do any scaling.  I'll try again when I get home tonight.

[terrywyse]

Terry thanks for the rapid responses. Mr. Paulson died a few year back..my name is Mark  I have the Atkinson XML file loaded in ColorPort and  I insert the target when ColorPort is ready.  It pulls the target in about half way without stopping and then kicks it out. I don't remember the exact message. I am not trimming the chart. I printed it directly from CS4 using the Canon print plug-in on Letter size sheets. I didn't do any scaling.  I'll try again when I get home tonight.

Hello MARK

You should trim the chart to the dotted/dashed lines before inserting. There is SOME tolerance to how accurately you trim the chart but it can get iffy if you leave more than 1/8" surrounding the dotted lines.

It sounds like it's not finding the black bar that runs horizontally above the color patches. It's either the trimming that's off or you're choosing the incorrect chart from the Target pop-up list in ColorPort. Make sure you're selecting the correct version of the chart if there's more than one, for example, a single page or two-page layout.

You might try making your own chart just to see if it's the iSis or a software problem. In the "Create Chart" tab, choose RGB and then choose perhaps the 918 patch target. Change the layout to suit your page layout, save it as a TIFF and then print it (ColorPort will automatically add your custom chart to the Target pop-up list). Measure this chart to see if it behaves. If it does, there's likely a problem with Bill Atkinson's charts.

As a side note, there should already be a 1728 patch reference in the "Create Chart" area. The 1728 patch chart is one of the standard charts that is used with MonacoPROFILER and, as far as I know, the device values are the same as Bill's 1728 patch chart. It's basically 12x12x12 matrix of RGB values (12^3 = 1728). If all else fails, use the 1728 target that's already built into ColorPort. As long as you save the measurements in the correct format, you can use this chart with either ProfileMaker or MonacoPROFILER.

Terry (aka "Mr. Wyse)

[Mark Paulson]

Terry, thanks for the help. A quick test this morning revealed the problem, I think. I did a quick print to bond paper with the text at the top of the target erased. The sheets shot through there in nothing flat. apparently it does not like anything before the black bar. I will run more test tonight. The only problem now is that it will not save the data in Monaco Format. Not a big deal since I have the converter by Eric Chan.

Mark

[Mark Paulson]

I’m not really sure why one would want to go through the hassle of converting Bill’s targets for MeasureTool to work in ColorPort (the two produce the same net results), but it is doable.

Hi Andy,

I just like ColorPort a little better. I like to stretch the window larger and watch the squares being read. A lot easier to see if something looks funny or I have a misread, which has not happened so far.

Regards,
Mark

[Mark Paulson]

It appears that the printing at the top of the Atkinson Targets was not the problem. I was getting the target to read but not consistently, After creating a ColorPort Target I compared the two. I notice that the ColorPort Target black strip at the top was a little taller (thicker) that the Atkinson Target. I tried several iterations of the on the Atkinson and finally came up with a thickness of 3/8" to work consistently. To thick will also cause it to fail. I don't know if something in the iSis of the ColorPort software changed since Bill did his the original targets, but I have now put back the text and the the iSis with ColorPort eats the target first time every time. Now the funny thing is that PM5 will not read the Targets with the thicker black bar.

Added 5-08-10

After some experimenting, I was able to determine that the thickness or height of the black bar at the top of the target needs to be 7mm for the target to work with both ColorPort and Measure Tool 5.