Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: view camera multiple long exposures  (Read 3532 times)

Jonny Gawler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
    • http://www.jonnygawler.com
view camera multiple long exposures
« on: May 05, 2010, 04:37:19 am »

having searched around for a while and not found the answer i thought i'd ask.

so say for example i've got a p45 on a view camera with whatever lens in a mechanical copal shutter. now lets say i'd like to do four exposures at 30 seconds – without touching the camera between exposures so each file will layer up in ps. in my own naive head i can't see why i even need a shutter for this application, especially if it has no electrical communication with the back. you'd think (!) the back would be able to start and finish exposures independently...

is there some tortuous mechanical procedure for this or is it only possible with a super crazy expensive electronic shutter and controller?
Logged

Dick Roadnight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1730
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 06:26:17 am »

Quote from: Jonny Gawler
having searched around for a while and not found the answer i thought i'd ask.

so say for example i've got a p45 on a view camera with whatever lens in a mechanical copal shutter. now lets say i'd like to do four exposures at 30 seconds – without touching the camera between exposures so each file will layer up in ps. in my own naive head i can't see why i even need a shutter for this application, especially if it has no electrical communication with the back. you'd think (!) the back would be able to start and finish exposures independently...

is there some tortuous mechanical procedure for this or is it only possible with a super crazy expensive electronic shutter and controller?
The problem used to be reciprocity failure with film, now there are limits to the length of exposure for digibacks.

You could use a press type shutter to prevent touching the camera between shots (with separate cocking cable or a cock-and-fire cable).

It is super crazy expensive, but I am going to get electronic shutters,

...for painting by flash light: two sets of pocket wizards, one for camera, one for flashes so you can walk round the scene with flashes and remote to make multi-pictures for layering.

As you are only an hour's drive away, perhaps we could team up on this... what is you application?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 06:28:05 am by Dick Roadnight »
Logged
Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

Jonny Gawler

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
    • http://www.jonnygawler.com
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 09:48:27 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
As you are only an hour's drive away, perhaps we could team up on this... what is you application?

i'll pm you later or tomorrow. meanwhile have you seen this?

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/03/...iple-exposures/

i could be reading it wrong but it sounds like it might make a shutter unnecessary for my intended use (blackout studio, multiple long exposures for layering up separately-lit areas of a car image). it gives the impression i can just lock open the shutter and use the toggle switch on the unit to make the exposures...
Logged

Dick Roadnight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1730
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 10:00:10 am »

Quote from: Jonny Gawler
i'll pm you later or tomorrow. meanwhile have you seen this?

http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/03/...iple-exposures/

i could be reading it wrong but it sounds like it might make a shutter unnecessary for my intended use (blackout studio, multiple long exposures for layering up separately-lit areas of a car image). it gives the impression i can just lock open the shutter and use the toggle switch on the unit to make the exposures...
I am not familiar with Phase kit, and do not know if anything like that would work with Hasselblad.

Electronic shutters are expensive, but they are very useful for many applications.
Logged
Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

DanielStone

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 664
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 11:15:16 am »

what aobut just using the "bulb/B" or the Time(T) function on the lens?

T will let you click(opens and stays open) and click(closes shutter)
B   click(opens, you have to depress the shutter release though), let go of the release plunger and it closes

would this work? will it 'sync' to let the digi back know its actually exposing?

-Dan
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 11:15:45 am by DanielStone »
Logged

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4220
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 07:07:00 pm »

I'm not 100% clear on whether you want to do multiple exposures on one piece of digital film (so to speak) or capture four raw files.

IF YOU WANT TO CAPTURE ALL IN ONE RAW FILE ("multiple exposures")....

Any solution you use will require the back to be "exposing" the entire time since only one "exposure" can be recorded as one raw file. Therefore you'll be limited to the maximum exposure time of the back. For a P45 non plus unit in normal ambient temperatures this will be somewhere in the ballpark of 4-5 minutes (of course all things are relative, you may find you can go longer or shorter depending on the ambient temperature and your personal threshold for noise). As a quick side note: any plus back would effectively remove this limitation as they can all exposure for around an hour with normal ambient temperatures (longer in colder temperatures).

IF YOU WANT TO CAPTURE FOUR SEPARATE RAW FILES...

Than the only thing you are "missing" is the fact that the digital back requires absolute dark during the "black frame" and "readout" time. With any Phase One back there is a "black frame" exposure equal to the normal exposure time (e.g. a 30 second exposure is followed by a 30 second black frame). On all digital backs that I am familiar with you also have a "readout" time where the data is read from the sensor. During both periods the sensor must not see any light or there are major image quality issues. So you do NOT need a shutter (as long as you use a device like our multiple exposure box which allows you to start and stop the exposure without any connection to a lens), BUT you must ensure that before you "stop" the exposure that there is no longer any light making it to the sensor. You can accomplish this by any of the methods outlined below (black box, turn the lights off, cover the lens, use a shutter). AFTER the sensor has done the black frame and the readout then you can open/close the lens, open/close the black box, turn the room lights on and off without consequence.


REGARDLESS...

Some options:
- a press shutter (self cocking shutter) or electronic shutter which can open and shut with very little mechanical movement.
- The "old fashion way" (thank you old college professor Gary Kirksey) of physically obscuring the lens to "close it". Simply find a suitable method of draping black cloth in front or over top of (depending on how much light is around the camera and the period you need to close the lens for) and remove it when you want to "open" the lens. The back remains exposing the whole time but when no light is hitting the sensor you'll not contribute to the final exposure in any meaningful way. I've seen some more elaborate setups where in front of the front standard a super-black 4-sided (open front and rear) box has been built so that it completely surrounds but does NOT touch the actual camera/lens/standards. That way the front can be covered or uncovered without any vibration/movement making it to the lens. This obviously works most easily for longer lenses as wide angle lenses make it harder to construct such a box without it being "seen" by the camera.
- just turn off the room lights assuming you have a very dark studio and can black out any possible LEDs/windows/etc

However, depending on your final-use you may find re-cocking a normal shutter produces very minimal movement. Jeffrey Jacobs, one of our customers, shoots anywhere from 3-30 shots to composite different times of days in his architectural photography and re-cocks the shutter of his Cambo Wide system by hand each frame - just taking ordinary precaution to do so as smoothly as possible. On rare occasions his images will be a pixel or two off which must be adjusted either by hand or the "auto-align" feature of photoshop, but this occurs more often due to someone kicking the tripod during the 4-14 hours he is set up in one place than from the recocking motion. He has the benifit here of a very solid tripod, a camera system the front "standard" of which is centered on the tripod (since it is a flat tech camera) and a wide-angle lens which shows extremely minor rotation less.

When I was doing my project on extreme macro photography I used this basic method to capture 150-250 images in a row with zero movement or mechanical action on the camera. In that case I was working at 7x-15x at 60 megapixels and so could not afford even the slightest hint of movement that even an electronic shutter implies. I used a completely blacked out room and triggered the camera and strobes using the multiple-exposure box plugged into the digital back. The result was pretty flawless and I ended up more concerned with boredom (click-click, actuate micrometer, click-click, actuate micrometer, fall asleep) than camera movement since there was no mechanical motion associated with the camera whatsoever.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work

CBarrett

  • Guest
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 09:23:38 pm »

Ditto.  I regularly (like every day) composite multiple images from my Arca.  These are all shot on location, frequently moving fast and exercising fairly average shutter re-cocking.  My layers are frequently exactly aligned and never more than a pixel off.  If I make an effort to handle everything gently I'm always dead on.  With film, I used to always gaffer tape the lens board edges... it helps.

-CB

Had a really nice shoot today.
Logged

Dick Roadnight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1730
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2010, 10:26:12 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
... even the slightest hint of movement that even an electronic shutter implies. I used a completely blacked out room and triggered the camera and strobes using the multiple-exposure box plugged into the digital back. The result was pretty flawless and I ended up more concerned with boredom (click-click, actuate micrometer, click-click, actuate micrometer, fall asleep) than camera movement since there was no mechanical motion associated with the camera whatsoever.
Does an electronic shutter with a 5Kg fully geared camera on a 10Kg fully geared tripod imply any movement at all?

I am thinking of setting up an automated system for focusing for macro ... ¿do they do a SDK (software development Kit) for Phocus?
Logged
Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4220
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 12:58:16 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Does an electronic shutter with a 5Kg fully geared camera on a 10Kg fully geared tripod imply any movement at all?

I am thinking of setting up an automated system for focusing for macro ... ¿do they do a SDK (software development Kit) for Phocus?

To be fair I don't have any electronic shutters so I can't say for sure. For sure an electronic leaf-shutter produces VERY little net movement and is a great option when you want to minimize camera movement in the vast majority of photographic situations. The issue on my project was just the level of magnification. In the final image one pixel represented about 1.5 microns of real world distance on the subject (1.5 cm subject / 9000 pixels) and it took 30 minutes to capture any given sequence and 4-5 hours of compute time to process and stack the images together. So bottom line: any variable I could eliminate was important to me.

Don't know about Phocus, but both Leaf and Phase One have SDKs. Leaf's is free, Phase One's is paid and both provide extremely high levels of access to the underpinnings of the program. Also, Phase One supports and builds in scripting so you can use Apple Script to control capture and processing; AppleScript is easier, but of course less powerful/flexible than the SDK.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 01:01:53 pm by dougpetersonci »
Logged

Dick Roadnight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1730
view camera multiple long exposures
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 05:55:49 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
The issue on my project was just the level of magnification. In the final image one pixel represented about 1.5 microns of real world distance on the subject (1.5 cm subject / 9000 pixels)
When doing Macro with a Sinar, you can (often) eliminate most movement of the subject relative to the camera by mounting the subject on a spare camera standard on the same rail as the camera.
Logged
Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
Pages: [1]   Go Up