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Author Topic: Big day for the US  (Read 20827 times)

Pete Ferling

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Big day for the US
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2010, 07:18:05 am »

All of this is academic fun, really.   However, let's not forget that the 76 million Baby Boomers, those whom represent the lions share of the economy now, are also starting to hit the pasture, and that will create a significant spike in the number of elderly and those also requiring medical care in the next decade.  Obviously supported by a smaller workforce, the majority of burger flipping, shelf stocking, cart pushing small cog in the big machine folks... It will be interesting to see if ANY government bandage will suffice.

In regards to those of you whom cry foul because you feel that this forum like so many others are not 'proper' places to talk about government issues, you need to understand that such thinking is the root cause of our current political climate to begin with.  So while you ignore, put aside, or find these conversations for reasons unknown as 'difficult', you do know that a choice will be made for in your absence, and you'll just have to live it with.

"Well Doctor, what kind of government do we have - a Monarchy or a Republic?"

"A Republic, if you can keep it."
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Adam L

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Big day for the US
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2010, 07:58:32 am »

I work for a large IT outsourcing company.  My job is to support the sales organization by pricing up new business.   In the US, we have a real competitive problem that will get worse with this reform package.  It's a simple fact that we cannot win new business if we do so using US only labor.   We get our pants beaten off us every time we try.   We compete by blending offshore rates (India and such) with some US labor.  In these cases we are competitive and do win our share of deals.  The result is less US workers but it's better than the alternative.

This onshore/offshore mix of labor will HAVE to shift to more offshore resources to offset the increase in taxes.   This means that US employment will decrease.  We have to choose between winning no business and winning some business.  These are the realities in our market today.

To drive this home further, the average wage rate in the US for an experienced IT resource is about $100,000 annually.  This includes fringe and health care costs.   Compare this to a similar experienced person in India who's annual salary is under $30,000.   If you were a customer making a buying decision and realized that you're receiving the same product at hugely different prices...which would you choose?

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I don't understand why we needed government takeover in order to put in place some reforms to this system.    I hear that Insurance companies are reaping extraordinary profits, but when I look at income statements and annual reports, their profits are much less than many industries.   When one compares the average wage of a private sector employee to a government employee, it's the govt employee that receives better pay and better benefits, not the private sector.  

Ask yourself why there were so many closed meetings and payoffs to get the democratic party to support this bill.  There is bipartisan support against this reform, single party payola support for this reform.
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Chris_T

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Big day for the US
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2010, 07:59:29 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
USA was the only place of the richest contry in the world that did not provide this basic service for free!
Maybe Germany or France etc...are third world nation?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
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Chris_T

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« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2010, 08:04:23 am »

Suggestion to Michael:

Provide logos for an elephant and a donkey, and let the members add them to their signatures. Then we will know where their comments on photography are coming from.
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fredjeang

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Big day for the US
« Reply #84 on: March 24, 2010, 09:06:43 am »

well well well.
I left this topic yesterday at night, spanish time, and back this morning, saw the impressive amount of animated posts, arguments and strongly opposed positions.
I'm really impressed by the brain washing that have been victims some americans, associating health care with kind of socialism or comunism regimes.
There is a mass manipulation, too much tv or whatever is the reason.

So, maybe Canada is a comunist country, no? USA should build a barrier on the canadian's border then, instead of the mexican one...to be safed from this horrible socialist regime that is contaminating the freedom of the us citizens. Do you see the ridiculous of the situation?

The fact is that all the richest countries in the world, fully capitalists and democratics, provide health care service to their citizens. That, simply can not happen in Africa.
Holand, sweeden are also probably dangerous socialist US ennemies with their super developped healph care system...come on guys! Free Health care is a basic rich states service that has nothing to do with politic's colors. And they can do it because they are rich.

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:57:38 am by fredjeang »
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David Hufford

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« Reply #85 on: March 24, 2010, 09:34:31 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Please ... do you honestly believe that the wealthiest country in the world can't afford to provide decent health care to its population?

Nonsense.

A trillion dollars is only 7% of annual income ... that's a big number, but we are a HUGE country with a nearly $15 trillion economy.

We can afford it.  Don't believe ANYONE who says otherwise ... they are either ignorant of the facts to pursuing a different agenda.

You can oppose this ... but not because we can't afford it ... we can't afford NOT to do this.

Well. I sorta think it is time that we did something about health-care in the US and I think this MAY be a good start. Not so sure about the "can afford it" part since we can't afford to operate the country now without China and Japan's money. Should they for some reason be unable or unwilling to continue, then we'd have to raise taxes on someone other than the other guy or make some real cuts, either of which might be un-American to some.

I live in a country with mandatory health insurance (Japan) and while for most run-of-the-mill illnesses it is very nice, it has some serious flaws (the extreme difficulty of winning a malpractice suit or getting an incompetent doctor's license withdrawn) and it is not likely that Japan can continue to provide such care. They have already raised the patient's share of the payments several times----it's around 30% and isn't going to get any better. And that doesn't cover the "gifts" that are still customary to doctors in some situations...(T Reid done forgetted to mentioned that and more on his Japan Frontline spot, but then again, he pretty much ruled out Japan's system as applicable to the US. Too generous and too expensive.)

Now if Uncle Sam would withdraw its military from certain places (hint: one place would be the still second largest economy  on earth, 日本)and all over the world, perhaps we could more confidently provide such basic services for our own citizens.  Let the UN or another country take up the world policeman role.
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Craig Lamson

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Big day for the US
« Reply #86 on: March 24, 2010, 09:35:24 am »

Quote from: ckimmerle
Not sure exactly why it was attached to the health care bill, but it does make a lot of sense. Student loans are big business for banks who, of course, profit from the accrued interest. The trouble is that banks earn this money, hundreds of millions of dollars annually, without taking ANY risks as these loans are insured by the federal government. It's free money for them.

Does it make good economic sense to back for-profit loans taxpayer dollars? By skipping the middle man (banks) loans may actually get less expensive and the revenue, if done correctly, can help fund the program.


I don't have the cite at hand, but the last I read about the new government Student Loan program is that his will cost the students MORE...about 1700 bucks over the life of the loan...now that the thing has gone governmental.  

This bill needs to be killed in the courts.  It is clearly unconstitutional.


Imagine, in AMERICA being forced to purchase a product from a private company to remain a lawful citizen!  Whats next?  A required Chevy?
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JamiePeters

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Big day for the US
« Reply #87 on: March 24, 2010, 01:01:17 pm »

This thread should be pulled.  This is a lose lose thread.  Tis is not the forum for this and if anyone read the bill.  They would not be clapping or cheering.  Hello, wake up Misses Bueller.  I thought this was an educated group.  When some states get 300 million to get there vote others don't have to pay in like Nebraska.  The Gov gets to expand to 159 new agencies, Yes I said 159 new agencies hiring how many people,  when they hire usually the least qualified people and are the laziest people ever hired.  Yeh that's a great plan.  

Health care is not a right, it should be earned and then only offered when you have worked.  Can't wait till one you cheering public have to go in and get the run around,

IF THEY CAN'T THE MONOPOLY CALLED THE POST OFFICE HOW CAN THEY MANAGE YOUR HEALTH CARE.  WAKE AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!

I work damn long and hard hours to get what I got, so others can benefit from me.  Not a chance, this bill is for the lazy, who are milking this country dry!

And keep the comments of the war out of this conversation, we wouldn't be there if we had a U.N. could do there job.  As usual we have to fix what they screwed up or were to inept to do right.  JP
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:18:20 pm by JamiePeters »
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BJL

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Big day for the US
« Reply #88 on: March 24, 2010, 01:09:23 pm »

Quote from: thebatman
Hopefully Michael and others will post similar congratulations 20 years from now when the US declares bankruptcy.
Given the many nations that have had more comprehensively universal government subsidized health care for decades, have significantly lower per capita healthcare expenditures, better overall outcomes on measures like lower infant mortality and higher life expectancy, and are not bankrupt, I am not worried about that happening. As an Australian, I will point out that the current healthcare debate there is only on how to improve the public part of its popular and over thirty year old public/private health care system, with not the slightest popular desire to "privatize".
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Paul Roark

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Big day for the US
« Reply #89 on: March 24, 2010, 01:48:37 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Congratulations for the US !
This is truly an historic date...

Thank you, and yes, it  is a big deal.

I did economic analysis in the context of antitrust law enforcement, with the US Federal Trade Commission for 25 years.  As a non-partisan, a-political person, both parties invited  me back to assist with running of the agency, and I gracefully declined with both in order to protect my non-partisan status.

The work I did included some health care related issues.

The bottom line from an antitrust perspective is that some fields, which may include modern health care, have such huge economies of scale, that putting together a rational and competitive  system may be impossible given the structure of the industry.  The complainants in the health care area in my experience were often not rabble-rousing, naive types.  Not infrequently they included the CEOs of the largest and best hospitals and health care providers.

We were dealing with some of the rather small -- in comparison -- issues. However, I gained a major appreciation for  the complexity and disfunctionality of the system.  

No one can predict exactly how this will all work out;  it's way too complex.  It'll be interesting to see what happens.  

As cynical as we often are of our processes, I came to the conclusion that the only thing worth believing in is that a modern democracy makes better decisions than the alternatives, and this one just made a major decision.  


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #90 on: March 24, 2010, 02:14:44 pm »

Being English I will say that without the NHS I wouldn't be able to walk today. Can't imagine the ridiculous amounts of money you Americans pay each month for health care and our taxes are less than yours as well, for self employed, much much less. Of course it does mean that you wait for operations but you always have the choice to pay for private health care and many do as I have done in the past when I needed something done fast. The idea is choice.

I'm relatively right wing myself but some of the 'right wing' viewpoints expressed here and some of the phraseology has shocked me to my core. I believe that CNN is as guilty of being left as Fox is of being right with all that implies (they are just as bad but in the other direction) and for those who think the BBC is the holy grail of apolitical coverage, please, it's anything but. However, the idea and concept that there is only black and white in politics whether left or right is pretty abhorent to Europeans and horribly close minded.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Big day for the US
« Reply #91 on: March 24, 2010, 02:26:59 pm »

I'm just getting around to reading this thread right now.  All I can say with a great deal of confidence is there is an incredible amount of vitriol and misinformation being put forth.  I "may" be the only person commenting here that has a direct connection with this legislation.  My employer was one of the first organizations to come out and support health care reform early last year.  Our representatives met with Senator Baucus and President Obama.  It's no secret in Washington DC that we supported this legislative approach and worked hard to achieve it.  I don't think we would support a government takeover of the health care industry.  The important thing to note is that this approach continues to rely on private sector delivery of health care benefits.  Health insurance companies are in no way being socialized.  Adverse selection and non-coverage of pre-existing conditions will be outlawed (and very quickly).  For those of you who object to the mandates (including the state's attorney generals who are filing lawsuits that stand no chance of success in the courts) case law is pretty clear that this is permitted under the Constitution.  If you don't have mandates, you cannot have reasonable private sector insurance delivery without astronomical rates (in fact the insurance lobby supports the mandate provision because it allows them to have a more balanced pool); witness what happened in California recently when Anthem announced 39% rate increases for individual polices.  Why did they do this?  Because the young healthy people were forgoing insurance leaving only those who would be bigger consumers of health care.  This sounds like a pretty reasonable business decision to me.  Even in "socialist" Europe there is private sector delivery with mandates.  The Netherlands requires all citizens to purchase a health insurance policy as does Switzerland.  There systems work pretty well.

Finally for those of us who believe we have the best health care system in the world I urge you to look at the data.  Numerous countries have longer life expectancies and lower infant mortality than the US for 1/2 the cost per capita.

Anyone wanting further details, I will be happy to answer by private message as I don't want to clog this thread up any more than it is.

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JamiePeters

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Big day for the US
« Reply #92 on: March 24, 2010, 02:28:10 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
... and ... the direct and indirect costs of the Iraq/Afghan wars have been estimated to be as high as $3 trillion ...
Let's keep the war out of this, If we had U.N. instead of some pussies running it, we the U.S. and a few other countries who don't stick our head in the sand wouldn't have gone in to Iraq.  Remember why they were formed, to stop future wars!!!!!

Next you will make the absolutely stupid comment, "there were no WMD's"  that's right tell that to 110,000 that were killed by them in Iraq.  I guess we were imagining those mass graves of dead kids, women and men lying there decomposing.  I guess that's right the holocaust didn't happen also.

Sorry Alan, Typo
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:50:29 pm by JamiePeters »
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Alan Goldhammer

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« Reply #93 on: March 24, 2010, 02:46:07 pm »

Quote from: JamiePeters
Next you will make the absolutely stupid comment, "there were no MWD's"  that's right tell that to 110,000 that were killed by them in Iraq.  I guess we were imagining those mass graves of dead kids, women and men lying there decomposing.  I guess that's right the holocaust didn't happen also.
What pray tell is a MWD???
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #94 on: March 24, 2010, 02:49:06 pm »

I got my new 1Ds mkIII today, wow but 21 megapixels looks different to my 5D original. Great at iso 3200 too. Contrary to all expectations my 24-105L looks even better! Just thought I'd change the subject  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:50:20 pm by Ben Rubinstein »
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Jeremy Payne

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Big day for the US
« Reply #95 on: March 24, 2010, 02:50:15 pm »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
What pray tell is a MWD???
Metropolitan Water District.
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JamiePeters

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« Reply #96 on: March 24, 2010, 02:51:18 pm »

Quote from: Alan Goldhammer
What pray tell is a MWD???

Sorry for the Typo,  WMD's
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tim wolcott

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Big day for the US
« Reply #97 on: March 24, 2010, 02:56:49 pm »

I thought this site was to be about photography.  I have sent a email to Michael, asking this to be pulled.  This is not why we come here and the thread never should have been allowed.  

The battle will be raged in other areas and places over this issue, make your voices heard there.  

And Yes, if you no me, and many do here, I do have very strong factual opinions on this!

Spring is starting very quickly and this is what we should be focusing on.  Here is something to cheer you up, take a deep breath and see the magic in spring.
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JamiePeters

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« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2010, 03:09:57 pm »

When are going to teach some classes here.  I know you have the other workshops, but could be fun.  Put me on the list.  Very nice image, thanks for posting it, and calming us down.  JP
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:10:51 pm by JamiePeters »
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michael

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Big day for the US
« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2010, 03:11:48 pm »

No, I will not pull it Tim.

As long as the discourse remains about ideas rather than insults, it stands.

There's more to life than photography, and America being dragged kicking and screaming into 20th Century health care (notice I don't write 21st Century, because it's not there yet) is a good thing and worthy of discussion here, and anywhere else.

Michael
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