Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Big day for the US  (Read 20822 times)

perl_monger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Big day for the US
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2010, 06:33:22 pm »

All the emotional discussion on here has been about health care in general, not THIS PARTICULAR HEALTH CARE BILL. All the snivelling, whining, "why can't the US be like the rest of us" talk, no one addresses the bill or the shady politics behind it. Bribery, the nationalization of the student loan program, kickbacks to interested parties, all have nothing to do with health care. But they sure do have everything to do with this bill.

Ends justifying the means? Whatever. The majority of Americans don't want it, and hopefully it gets flushed down the toilet real soon now.
Logged

jasonrandolph

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 554
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/shutterpunk
Big day for the US
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2010, 06:47:44 pm »

Quote from: perl_monger
All the emotional discussion on here has been about health care in general, not THIS PARTICULAR HEALTH CARE BILL. All the snivelling, whining, "why can't the US be like the rest of us" talk, no one addresses the bill or the shady politics behind it. Bribery, the nationalization of the student loan program, kickbacks to interested parties, all have nothing to do with health care. But they sure do have everything to do with this bill.

Ends justifying the means? Whatever. The majority of Americans don't want it, and hopefully it gets flushed down the toilet real soon now.
I'm 100 percent with you Perl.  This is corruption in the name of caring.  But there IS a connection between nationalization of student loans and gov't-run health care: government control.  The bill isn't about health care OR student loans.  It's purely a power grab by the federal government.  That's why 14 states are suing the feds already.  Hopefully the other 36 will follow suit.  The states have the power to provide health care by the Tenth Amendment, not the federal government.  The states and the people are going to ram this bill down Obama/Reid/Pelosi's collective throat before all this is done.  And hopefully we'll do it Chicago-style.

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Big day for the US
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2010, 07:01:01 pm »

Hi,

I'm not a US taxpayer and when I travel to US I have a health insurance policy, so I'm definitively an outsider. On the other I'd suggest that a decent level of health care is, or should be, a basic right for everyone in a wealthy and developed country.

I'd also suggest that Michael Reichmann who has initiated, owns and manages this forum can discuss whatever issues he wants. Obviously, this issue is important to him.

This forums have always been open and tolerant, let's keep up with that good tradition!


Best regards
Erik

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 01:15:23 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18004
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Big day for the US
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2010, 07:02:06 pm »

Quote from: jasonrandolph
... The states and the people are going to ram this bill down Obama/Reid/Pelosi's collective throat before all this is done.  And hopefully we'll do it Chicago-style.
And which Chicago style would that be? Al Capone's?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:03:55 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
Logged

Jeremy Payne

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2010, 07:04:15 pm »

Quote from: perl_monger
The majority of Americans don't want it, and hopefully it gets flushed down the toilet real soon now.
USA Today/Gallup Poll from yesterday ...

"As you may know, yesterday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a bill that restructures the nation's health care system. All in all, do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing that Congress passed this bill?"

Good Thing - 49%
Bad Thing - 40%
Unsure - 11%
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2010, 07:09:31 pm »

oh oh...it smells that it could be a thread that will be closed very soon.  

Be happy! What's wrong? USA will be like Canada, so you won't hear these complains and comparaisons any more.
The other rich countries won't be able to use this argument any more when it comes to cheap anti-usa position etc..
and you'll have more social fairness and social peace. 100% positive for USA.

Now, it seems that my 100% US dslr does not interest anybody  

Fred.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:10:53 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Big day for the US
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2010, 07:11:28 pm »

Photography, not least in in America, has a long and honourable tradition of bringing casues of social injustice to light. The visual truth has been a powerful force for social change in the last century.

What is truly sad and frightening, as graphically illustrated by this thread, is that,200 years after pioneering modern democracy, America has lost the ability to conduct a civil, intelligent, informed debate on any issue of public policy.  Propaganists demagogues (who masquerade as 'news' sources) have reduced the level of discussion to such a low level of lies and inane untruths, build upon the narrative of fear and threat which was fed to the nation by its central government for almost a decade, that one wonders how long it will be before the rancour simply descends into violence.  Good thing Americans aren't heavily armed or anything.

When I was young, there was often talk of how Canada would simply, inevitably become part of the US because we were so similar. Now, I look south and see a land riven by fear, hate, religious extremism, and institutionalized corporate theivery passed-off as a 'freedom from govt control',  unable even to have a civil conversation about how to achieve minimal levels of compassionate medical care for one another.  If this keeps up, I wouldn't be surprised to see America fracture into a number of smaller, poor,violent, and globally insignificant pieces within my lifetime.  

So sad.

- N.


ps. you might recall that Michael has more than a passing interest in the subject of US health-care, having held a massive print-sale on this site to raise funds to pay for medical care for a family friend with a grave illness, who had exhausted her private insurance. It's all a great government take-over, until it's your mother or sister who needs chemotherapy.....
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:18:17 pm by ndevlin »
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

Jeremy Payne

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2010, 07:14:45 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
USA will be like Canada

Actually, the plan is nothing like the Canadian system - I wish it were.

Personally, I think the market has failed us here and would gladly support a single-payer system.
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2010, 07:19:17 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Actually, the plan is nothing like the Canadian system - I wish it were.

Personally, I think the market has failed us here and would gladly support a single-payer system.

Me too.
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2010, 07:19:39 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Actually, the plan is nothing like the Canadian system - I wish it were.

Personally, I think the market has failed us here and would gladly support a single-payer system.
Really Jeremy? I thought it was in a way similar. Well...
So I understand even less why all this passion and agitation against it if it will be just an approximation?    

Fred.
Logged

John.Murray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 886
    • Images by Murray
Big day for the US
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2010, 07:31:24 pm »

Quote
What is truly sad and frightening, as graphically illustrated by this thread, is that,200 years after pioneering modern democracy, America has lost the ability to conduct a civil, intelligent, informed debate on any issue of public policy. Propaganists demagogues (who masquerade as 'news' sources) have reduced the level of discussion to such a low level of lies and inane untruths, build upon the narrative of fear and threat which was fed to the nation by its central government for almost a decade, that one wonders how long it will be before the rancour simply descends into violence. Good thing Americans aren't heavily armed or anything.

Ever read about the constitutional convention?  Technology back then was just as mis-used.....

As far as arms... we are
Logged

Jeremy Payne

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2010, 07:32:55 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Really Jeremy? I thought it was in a way similar. Well...
So I understand even less why all this passion and agitation against it if it will be just an approximation?    

Fred.

Amazing, right?  What has been proposed so far is nothing like the Canadian system - although many opponents of the plan believe that to be the case.

If you want to oppose the plan because it doesn't include tort reform or because it doesn't allow for a national insurance market then let's talk about real issues.

But if you are going to bitch about it being too expensive or too 'socialist', you've been played ... badly ...
Logged

fredjeang

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2010, 07:37:30 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
If you want to oppose the plan because it doesn't include tort reform or because it doesn't allow for a national insurance market then let's talk about real issues.

But if you are going to bitch about it being too expensive or too 'socialist', you've been played ... badly ...
Absolutly.
Agree 100%

Fred.
Logged

perl_monger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Big day for the US
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2010, 07:45:56 pm »

I'm sorry if some members think this discussion has gotten out of hand. There are strong opinions, but that doesn't mean that things are out of hand - just strong opinions. I apologize if anything that I have said was disrespectful. I find the bill distasteful, but not you guys.

On March 22, a CNN poll was released which showed that 59% of Americans opposed the bill. A Gallop poll released today shows that 49% think it is good. Polling methodology or actual results?

I am sympathetic to the story of and am grateful to Michael for having a print sale in support of a friend in need. There are stories and anecdotes on both sides of this argument - I work for a UK company and read the newspaper accounts of neglected patients, denied care, shortages, how bureaucrats outnumber doctors 2:1, and the like. This comes from UK papers, not US. And I know people in Buffalo, NY, who work in hospitals that do a very good business from Canadians seeking care here. Didn't Danny Williams choose to come to the US for heart surgery - 'my heart, my choice'?

To me, the US has always been the "out" for other countries because of the system we had in place. If you didn't like or were denied service, you could always come to the US. The size of and the fact that the US had a market based system was incentive for companies to develop product that found its way to the rest of the world. A monopoly in this regard? No. A significant, maybe the most significant contributor? Yes.

The solution arrived at is not the only solution. My beef with it has been what is in the bill, and how it was passed. The ramifications are not yet known. Will more people have insurance coverage? Yes. Will care improve? Who knows. Will scarcity and rationing, historically a consequence of government control, at least in this country be the result? Will the end result be a more humane system or less of one? I guess we will find out. But if it's not - will there be a way back? These are the questions that haunt me. Like Denny Williams, will we have a choice, or will it be like so many government provided services here?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 07:55:20 pm by perl_monger »
Logged

azmike

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
    • http://
Big day for the US
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 08:03:57 pm »

Thank you Michael.

To my fellow Americans:  we could take the civility and thoughtful tone of Michael Reichmann's words as an example of how to communicate.  Demagoguery and rancor will not help us deal with the big challenges we face.


Mike Coffey
Prescott, AZ
Logged

Jeremy Payne

  • Guest
Big day for the US
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2010, 08:23:32 pm »

Ronald Reagan, 1961, speaking out against Medicare ... "one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children, and our children's children, what it once was like in America when men were free."

Hmmmm ... Medicare is pretty popular ... Reagan was just plain wrong ... hmmm ... sounds a lot like these guys ... history will be the judge ...

Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio: "We are about 24 hours from Armageddon. This health care bill will ruin our country."

U.S. Rep. Devin Nunes, R-Calif.: "Today we are turning back the clock. For most of the 21st century, people fled the ghosts of communist dictators and with passage of this bill, they will haunt Americans for generations. Your multitrillion-dollar health care bill continues the failed Soviet socialist experiment. It gives the federal government absolute control over health care in America. Today Democrats in this House will finally lay the cornerstone of their socialist utopia on the backs of the American people."

U.S. Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn.: "The consequences of this bill will be frightening and horrible."

Republican Party Chairman Michael Steele: "(House) Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi ... your actions are despicable, and you and your allies will be held accountable for them."

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah: "It's the Europeanization of America, and that's the worst thing that could possibly happen to our country."

House Republican Conference Chairman Mike Pence (Indiana): "The American people want to face our challenges in health care with more freedom, not more government, and this really is about freedom. The more I think about this debate, the more I think about what Ronald Reagan said (about Medicare in the 1960s). He said then and now, it's about whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far distant capital can plan our lives better than we can plan them ourselves."
Logged

thebatman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Big day for the US
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2010, 08:39:47 pm »

I think we can all agree that we aren't going to settle this on a photo forum, but I'm puzzled by those asking for this thread to be locked.  Seems to me the discussion has been very civil, especially considering the passions this issue arouses.
Logged

thebatman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Big day for the US
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2010, 08:50:15 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Please ... do you honestly believe that the wealthiest country in the world can't afford to provide decent health care to its population?

Nonsense.

A trillion dollars is only 7% of annual income ... that's a big number, but we are a HUGE country with a nearly $15 trillion economy.

We can afford it.  Don't believe ANYONE who says otherwise ... they are either ignorant of the facts to pursuing a different agenda.

You can oppose this ... but not because we can't afford it ... we can't afford NOT to do this.

Yes, I honestly believe we cannot afford it.  Not even close.  I could go on forever, but there are two main reasons.  One, as I stated before, is that we cannot even pay for this first 10 years of the program.  It is not funded.  It will not be funded.  It will greatly add to the deficit.  Therefore QED, we cannot afford it because we ARE not affording it.  Two, maybe if it was health care alone we could manage.  But when you add the tremendous deficits already looming in social security, medicare and medicaid, plus the million-plus tax breaks for everything from alligator farms to ethanol cars, it very quickly becomes more than even this great country can afford.  With social security and medicare alone, we were already facing $70 TRILLION unfunded already, even before you add this bill.  You don't have to believe me, just google "social security and medicare unfunded liability".

And in that respect Reagan was right - medicare is/was unsustainable.  It just takes 30-40 years to show.  Well, it's showing now.  Buckle up for the next few decades.  In the face of all of these numbers, simply saying "we can't afford not to do it" not only doesn't make sense, it's downright irresponsible.  But sadly representative of the arguments for the bill.

And Slobodan, I think you jumped the gun.  Just because someone opposes this spending doesn't mean they wanted to fund the war.  Someone could easily be opposed to both.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18004
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Big day for the US
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2010, 09:23:36 pm »

Opponents of the health care reform often frame it as a (big) government vs. private sector/business/free markets. Proponents, on the other hand, cite extraordinary profits in the medical insurance and pharmaceutical sectors (presumably at the expense of those whose treatment was denied by insurance).

And this is where the debate gets heated very quickly, as it becomes emotional, hitting all the buttons where the basic sense of fairness is: huge profits vs. people being denied treatment or coverage, going bankrupt, etc. (bear with me, I am not claiming this is true or taking sides here, just describing). What then follows is an endless chain of anecdotal evidence on both sides: glaring examples of wrongs by either system (i.e., Canadian/European vs. American). And as in religious debates, nothing ever gets resolved, as strong beliefs and emotions rule.

Yet, there is an alternative (to the debate driven by emotions and beliefs). Given that I am, in general, a proponent of free markets, this is how, in my humble opinion, truly free markets would solve this: any industry with extraordinary profits would attract newcomers, increasing competition and ultimately decreasing prices and thus profits to the level of normal ones (or what economists call "zero economic profit").

So, the real issue here is not only about social justice, basic fairness, should-I-save-my-finger-or-feed-my-kids dilemmas, etc. The real questions is then : why isn't there a free(er) market for medical insurance and pharmaceuticals? What is preventing more competition? True, pharmaceuticals have huge barriers to entry (i.e., huge critical mass necessary for research). However, if insurance companies are racking enormous profits up, why aren't new insurance companies entering the fray?

And that is where the proper role of government should be: ensuring free markets. Given that Republicans like to portray themselves as champions of business and free markets, the questions is why didn't they open the health care markets to more competition in the eight years of unquestionable power? Had they done that, there would be much less need for a direct government intervention, the likes of which we are supposedly facing now.

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Big day for the US
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2010, 09:28:32 pm »

Continue to keep this thread civil and I'll keep it open. There's nothing wrong with a civil discourse by intellegent people, even when it gets a bit heated.

As for the health bill itself, as much as I am pleased to see it passed, I believe it to be a very poor bill, and from what I can gather much more expensive and over complicated than it likely should have been if a single payer approach had been acceptable, as it in most other countries.

But, it's a start, and hopefully over time, once the rancor has subsided, it can be finessed into a viable public system that the country can afford, and which the people deserve.


Michael
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6   Go Up