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Author Topic: H3D-50ms vs. P65+  (Read 15600 times)

BJNY

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Dick Roadnight

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 05:52:10 am »

Quote from: BJNY
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...s/h3d50ii.shtml
I might seem logical to compare the best Phase camera to the best Hasselblad camera before Hasselblad ship a better camera.

I have had no problems with the metering on my H3D11-50.
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aaron

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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2010, 07:12:24 am »

I was reading this comparison with great interest and surprise until i got to this bit:

"The dynamic range of a typical high-end professional 35 mm DSLR is around 7 F/stops. Medium Format cameras are closer to 13 F/stops of dynamic range. You can see the difference from 30 feet away in a small print."

Unfortunately that piece of misinformation just put a big question mark over the credibility of the whole piece. My point & shoot has more than 7 stops of dynamic range.  
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2010, 07:42:17 am »

Quote from: aaron
I was reading this comparison with great interest and surprise until i got to this bit:

"The dynamic range of a typical high-end professional 35 mm DSLR is around 7 F/stops. Medium Format cameras are closer to 13 F/stops of dynamic range. You can see the difference from 30 feet away in a small print."

Unfortunately that piece of misinformation just put a big question mark over the credibility of the whole piece. My point & shoot has more than 7 stops of dynamic range.

you really think that you have more than 7 usable stops with a CaNikon ?
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eronald

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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2010, 08:06:56 am »

I have two criticisms here:

- No comparison photograph of the newspaper with the p65
- My D3x has a decent amount of DR. I'd say it runs out of pixels faster than it runs out of DR.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 10:43:45 am by eronald »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 08:42:17 am »

Quote from: eronald
I have two criticisms here:

- No comparison photograph of the newspaper with the p65
- I took a P65 image yesterday, compared with a D3x in low light, ISO 800. The D3x has at least half a stop more DR.

Edmund
The highlight recovery and shadow fill features in Phocus 2 extend the DR of Hasselblads by at least 2 stops.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2010, 09:02:51 am »

Both highlight recovery as well as shadow light fill in Phocus do come at a price.

I really wonder what the purpose is of any test when you know the ins-& outs of one system and have only limited experience with the other. Considering this, the Hasselblad shows remarkable performance. I consider it a nice personal exercition but no more than that.

AFAIK, zero'ing out Phocus will only leave a small curve instead of the linear rendition of reproduction mode but I am pretty sure David will correct me and fill this in where needed. The whole discussion about color I find totally irrelevant. This can be manipulated to whatever you like or want. If accurate color is your goal, this can be done too (without too much effort).

Anyway, thanks for the comparison.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 09:03:46 am by Dustbak »
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kers

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 09:03:21 am »

Quote from: aaron
I was reading this comparison with great interest and surprise until i got to this bit:

"The dynamic range of a typical high-end professional 35 mm DSLR is around 7 F/stops. Medium Format cameras are closer to 13 F/stops of dynamic range. You can see the difference from 30 feet away in a small print."

Unfortunately that piece of misinformation just put a big question mark over the credibility of the whole piece. My point & shoot has more than 7 stops of dynamic range.


I agree
I guess DXO mark is a good judge on that.



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BobDavid

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 09:28:24 am »

All and all, not a bad read.

I disagree with his comments about poor metering, as I've always been impressed with the metering capabilities of my H2F/CF39 -MS combo.

I often come across the red and blue blotches noted in the single shot image of the newspaper page taken with the Hassey. I've gotten into the habbit of using the color noise reduction slider in Phocus to completely eliminate those artifacts.

Color fidelity out of the box is probably more accurate with the PhaseOne camera. However, I find that it's very, very easy to tweak the color in Phocus. And, even if I were shooting with a P65, I'd end up tweaking the color. There is a big difference between "pleasing color" and "accurate" color.

I've used both the H and the Mamiya cameras. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. The menu system on the Hassey is a little clunky, but it does offer a tremendous amount of choices and customizing. It certainly gets the job done. I love being able to put a waste finder on the Hasselblad for copystand work.

In terms of fine art repro, multi-shot is without a doubt the better choice. I think that my CF39 MS would probably outperform the P65 in that capacity.

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BJNY

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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 11:19:25 am »

Perhaps David Grover would comment on:

A FEW WORDS ABOUT THE SOFTWARE
In the past, one of the common complaints I used to hear from Hasselblad owners was that the CaptureOne
performed all kinds of magic on the files before rendering them as “without any adjustments”,
which wrongly lead people to believe that PhaseOne image quality was better than Hasselblad”.

After working with the Hasselblad software (Phocus) for several weeks,
there is no question in my mind that the situation (at least today) is the exact opposite.
There is a heck of a lot more image processing going on in Phocus than in C1
before an image is displayed (with all adjustments set to zero) in default mode.

It is crystal clear to me that before Phocus displays an image at its default settings,
with “no adjustments”, the software has already applied a large number of adjustments
to lead to a specific look in terms of contrast, color, saturation, clarity and sharpness.
The look is what I would call Velvia double plus.
Imagine the overly saturated and contrasty look of Velvia film and then punch it up not one, but two more notches.
This is what you get in Phocus with “no adjustments”.

While some photographers might like this look (I assume that many Hasselblad owners do),
personally I think it is grossly overdone. The shadows are way too dark, to the point of loosing much detail,
the upper mid-tones and highlights have too much contrast at first and too much compression on the high end;
finally, the color is so exaggerated that it is totally unreal.

There is a “Repro” mode somewhat hidden in the software menus,
which needs to be activated each and every time you open the application if you want to use it (!).
It is supposedly meant for people who need high color accuracy, such as folks making reproductions of fine art.
The very existence of this mode confirms that the software defaults to a specific look,
rather than accuracy or any semblance of “no adjustments”.

Repro mode is definitely more tame, the contrast is much more controlled and it brings back shadow and highlight detail.
In fact, the contrast can often be a little too low. But even in Repro mode the colors and the saturation are quite exaggerated.

As mentioned above, I had the advantage of being able to see the actual objects and compare them to the calibrated EIZO display in my computer,
as well as actual prints under controlled lighting conditions with a GTI Graphics print viewing station,
so the reader will have to trust me on the following comments:

The default mode with no adjustments in CaptureOne renders deadly accurate color and contrast in the PhaseOne images,
both, on the screen and in prints.
With the Hasselblad files, I had to turn on Repro mode, modify the contrast curve, desaturate the colors and adjust hues
before I could come close to matching the real objects either on the screen or in prints.
But even after doing all that, the PhaseOne colors still looked more accurate (perhaps a real expert in Phocus could do better than me).


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Guillermo

aaron

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H3D-50ms vs. P65+
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 11:37:19 am »

Quote from: erick.boileau
you really think that you have more than 7 usable stops with a CaNikon ?

There's no question that i get more than 7 usable stops on my Nikons.
I rarely use more than 5 or 6, but I know there's at least 9-10 there, more if you want to go down in to the deep shadows.

I guess it all depends on what you consider a 'usable stop', but regardless, to say a mfd back has 6 more usable stops than 35mm is highly misleading.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 12:46:45 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
I found this article interesting partly because I've been testing my own ixpress 528c  multishot back against my own phase p20.   I've come to the opposite conclusion as Mark has - but I eliminated the camera and lens differences in his testing by using the same camera and lens - a Rollei 6008AF with schneider 150mm apo macro (and some testing with the 90 apo macro).   I had a job to shoot paintings in a gallery for catalog and possible reproduction and carefully shot both backs using the same lighting, camera and lens.  It appears that he the ixpress has better color fidelity, dynamic range, and actually a cleaner iso 400 shot too. The multishot and microstep functions of the 528c just leave the phase P20 for dead when it comes to color, tonality, detail, noise, etc.     These are older backs, but the current software for processing.     YMMV.

I posted this to the other thread running on the article in the "About this site"
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tho_mas

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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 12:59:51 pm »

I simply can't believe that the H camera has exposure problems up to 2 stops as stated in the review.
I also do not believe that Mr. Dubovoy knows Phocus very well ... to me it sounds like an user error.
I don't know neither the H camera nor the software... but I'm sure we would read A LOT about such obvious errors or misbehaviour if they were the standard with the H system.
A real pitty that such tests/comparisions are not made as a collaboration of two photographers both knowing their systems.
Reminds me of the P65+ vs. H3D50MS comparision posted here some weeks ago that was totally screwed-up by the OP due to wrong software settings.

edit: this one - http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=40416&st=0

This is how both softwares look at default (respectively all settings to zero) posted by Niels v. Iperen:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&id=18969

And this is how both softwares look at default (respectively all settings to zero) posted by Steve Hendrix:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&id=18990

Apparently these two users did not experience the problems Mr. Dubovoy discovered...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 01:16:24 pm by tho_mas »
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chiek

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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 01:26:55 pm »

In 2~3 years, I've used leaf 22, phase P25, P45 and now use CF-39MS.

I've very impressed 1st CF-39MS shot. It has huge difference about P45 single shot.

detail, sharpness, color... all of article, MS shot wins.

I agreed tho_mas opinion.

each software (C1, phocus, LC11) has a difference in many ways.

I think each MFDB maker have a difference about default setting.

It is MFDB maker's character, for example, phase has low noise in long exposures.
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Toto

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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 02:33:54 pm »

The only thing we can agree with this "test" is that it's totally biased, as he proudly announces before quietly demonstrating it.

Now, he alone could explain how he commits himself in this hilarious testing

Oh, the landscape photographer who writes : "My only reason for testing is that I want to know what the best tools are to help me make the best images considering my subject matter and working habits." and then he tests old newspaper lol

"Since I am interested in practical results, as opposed to endless scientific tests, I chose to use very simple sets that were essentially flat." Is your garden flat ? Ouch !

Or I suppose, he is just trying to convince his wife he did a good deal anyway (because of huge price gap between the two systems ?).

This kind of poor testings doesn't help, but just demonstrate the P1 people prefers their P1 and Hassy People their Hassy (as the opposite test demonstrated here exactly the contrary). But, we had raw files to analyze the results. Here we have Phocus at it's worst setting ... glurps

That was the joke of the day ! Thanks for the good time
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BobDavid

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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 03:40:02 pm »

Quote from: Toto
The only thing we can agree with this "test" is that it's totally biased, as he proudly announces before quietly demonstrating it.

Now, he alone could explain how he commits himself in this hilarious testing

Oh, the landscape photographer who writes : "My only reason for testing is that I want to know what the best tools are to help me make the best images considering my subject matter and working habits." and then he tests old newspaper lol

"Since I am interested in practical results, as opposed to endless scientific tests, I chose to use very simple sets that were essentially flat." Is your garden flat ? Ouch !

Or I suppose, he is just trying to convince his wife he did a good deal anyway (because of huge price gap between the two systems ?).

This kind of poor testings doesn't help, but just demonstrate the P1 people prefers their P1 and Hassy People their Hassy (as the opposite test demonstrated here exactly the contrary). But, we had raw files to analyze the results. Here we have Phocus at it's worst setting ... glurps

That was the joke of the day ! Thanks for the good time

Give the guy a break. It wasn't a bad review nor particularly biased.
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MarkoRepse

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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 03:59:45 pm »

For me, what is more important than absolute image quality is using a camera system which you like to use! There is no doubt that both systems will produce wonderful files, add a little sanity to the testing, and one could say that the differences are negligible. Back to my point, if going MF, choose the system which speaks to you, which feels comfortable and does what you want. Flash sync, top autofocus, for high end portraits for example? Hasselblad. Open system and like tinkering? Phase. Do you just happen to like one better? Get that. Don't care? Then maybe this article is for you. There is no point searching for the fraction of a percent of difference between these systems as it is hideously stressful and won't improve your photography either.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2010, 04:18:36 pm »

Hi,

Having a difference by six stops sounds a bit excessive to me. A one stop difference sound physically reasonable. Reason is that a sensor cell of double size should be able to detect twice the number of photons. It seems that electronics (readout pre-amps) are a bit better on DSLRs than of MFDBs, that may reduce the difference even further.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: aaron
I was reading this comparison with great interest and surprise until i got to this bit:

"The dynamic range of a typical high-end professional 35 mm DSLR is around 7 F/stops. Medium Format cameras are closer to 13 F/stops of dynamic range. You can see the difference from 30 feet away in a small print."

Unfortunately that piece of misinformation just put a big question mark over the credibility of the whole piece. My point & shoot has more than 7 stops of dynamic range.
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hubell

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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2010, 04:56:43 pm »

For those who are sceptical about Mr. Dubovoy's observations(I know I always am), I used an H3D-39 for three years and switched to a P65 on an H2 last fall.  I did not expect that the Phase files would be all that different from the H3D files and switched for "other reasons." However, after using the cameras to shoot landscapes and processing the files in Phocus and C1, there really are quite significant differences in the files in certain areas. First, the H3D-39 has a very hard time with high frequency detail like foliage and tree branches. There tends to be a lot of "noise" in such files. That's not a scientific term, but I sure see it in the files. The P65 files are just able to handle all that detail very effectively. I tried turning off the sharpening in both raw converters and using Focus Magic to sharpen, but that did not change the result.  Second, there are color artifacts in the H3D files where there is foliage against a blue sky. You can see that in the H3D-50MS file above. Third, any blue sky in the Hasselblad files has a grayish, almost "dirty" cast to it, as if it was polarized. The P65, OTOH, renders a delicate blue sky much more "true". In fact, the H3D files generally seem to have a  "heavy" quality to them. And I personally do not feel it is "just" a matter of too much saturation. Fourth, the level of detail in the P65 files is simply breathtaking. I did not expect this improvement compared to a 39mp file. Finally, the shadow detail in the P65 files is also quite a bit better.
Does this mean that you cannot make beautiful photographs with an H3D-39? Of course not. However,  my experience is that the P65 files are both different and "better" in ways that are meaningful to me. Will the H4D-60 with the same Dalsa chip as the P65 level the playing field compared to the P65? Maybe. That will be interesting. I never compared in detail the H3D-39 to the P45, both of which used the same Kodak sensor.
BTW, Hasselblad deserves kudos for Phocus 2.0. It is a very easy to use piece of software that I prefer to Capture One. The latter may be more powerful in some ways, but Phocus is much more intuitive and quite satisfactory for my needs.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 10:01:22 pm by hcubell »
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Toto

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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2010, 05:58:00 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
For those who are sceptical about Mr. Dubovoy's observations, I used an H3D-39 for three years and switched to a P65 on an H2 last fall.

I'm testing the H3D50 against the H3D31 : it's a world of improvement. We cannot compare old sensors with new ones. The 39 MP is an old one. Comparing the 50 MP against the P65+ is not a bad idea : this is two new sensors, and with very close specifications. I think a lot of people are wondering if they will upgrade to the H4D50 or to the H4D60. As we have no real informations about the H4D60, comparing the 50MP sensor with the Dalsa 60 MP would a very valuable information.

Now, I don't buy a test with such bad use of phocus, that at the best we can consider as a mistake. This test looks too much as a response from P1 to the adverse testing from a hassy dealer. Too bad. We know for sure that we have to good brands here, and the differences are to be made on real fact on the system, not by small details that are not really significant.
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