phase versus hassleblad

[siba]

Hi Erik,

Well, exactly. So we're talking about tonal differentiation, not black and white.

Because the difference between black and white will always be the same. Which means that these tonal subtleties will be lost at 30 feet away.

Downres your favourite photos to a few inches by a few inches on your monitor and you will have to up the contrast and sharpen for the image to have the same effect.

From a distance, prints will behave the same way. If you want to view 10x8 prints from 30 feet away then you will have to up the contrast and sharpen in the same way to make it look better to the human eye- thus getting rid of any tonal advantages the MDFB print may have had.

cheers
stefan

[tho_mas]

that will be just +/- 2.5 stops in CaptureOne, right ?

with the "Exposure" tool, yes. But there's also "Brightness", "HDR", "Levels", "Curves" ...

[fredjeang]

 

Fred.

[barryfitzgerald]

And the debate rages on!

The sooner someone takes a MF digital and DSLR outside, takes a few shots and throws them up, the better!

[stewarthemley]

What’s going on here? This thread contains enough BS and recycled rubbish to fertilse the Sahara dessert.

Does anyone seriously think that whatever DR is, if there was truly a 6 stop difference we’d all not be aware of it? Even 4 stops.

Many of you guys, like me, own state of the art DSLRs and MFDBs, have done for a few years and pretty much know how to get the best out of them and their software. Yes, there’s a difference in some parameters, and clearly MF has the edge in some aspects of image quality, but 6 stops of anything? Get real. And don’t try to counter with the ludicrous argument that “If you can’t see it then that’s ok but we can.”

The fact that Michael and a few supporters continue to say it has, coupled with obviously contradictory statements which are then justified in a way that would impress even a politician, makes me seriously worry for their well being.

Sorry guys but this sort of thread devlaues LL massively.

[tnargs]

dpreview include an empirical DR analysis in their camera tests. They come out with 8.5 to 9 stops of DR for DSLR jpegs, and 11 or so for the RAW output with tone curve optimization. I don't see any MFD tests on their site, but the figures for DSLR's are pretty good.

Also, I don't 'get' the point of the print-at-30-feet story. Firstly, the whitest whites and blackest blacks are set by the print technology, and anyone can adjust a low-DR image file to max white and black. It's only the amount of subtlety in between that would vary with DR and that would require close inspection to distinguish.

Secondly, a high-DR image runs the risk of appearing 'flat', not more impressive.

[fredjeang]

Gentlemen, at least I've learned a specificity of the english language.

In my native language, french (and the french speaker can confirm it),
we would use 30 feet to express  a feeling, not a distance in itself.
If someone write: "on peut voir la différence à 10 mètres" (we can see the difference from 30 feet), everybody would immediatly understand that this person is not talking about absolute measure distance but about transmiting a sensation of clear differences from a distance.
So in my language, we can see the difference from 30 feet=there are clearly visible differences.
Not that this has been scientificaly mesured with a laser  
I thought that the language of precision and absolute was german, I'm surprised and delighted to learn that it is actually english.

Sincirely, I found that many of the attacks about that have been cynicals and made in order to demostrate one's ego superknowledge, but I see that I was wrong and basically I know now that it is because the english language does not tolerate vagueness and non-scientific concepts...This is a dispache from the field.

Now, about the DR stops, it has been writen from ages around the web that those differences are not just one stop or two, and it did not provoque this tsunami. But because we are in an high end scientific community, where the all world is waiting the very last of Lu-La posters researchs in order to be informed by the very gods of photography, this has made history and now we came to the conclusion that this web site has damaged its reputation...
If you find that we could fit an entire desert with rubbish I certainely beleive so.
I'm sure that more than one engineer working in photography research had a good laugh seeing many of the vague arguments with absolutely no proof in images, made by those who claim rigor and complained about the exageration.

I also noticed that the only woman who post here has made a real wised contribution with a draw, saying with a welcome tint of humor: a mistake? who cares?...but testosteron has occured as always and now I also understand more about the reasons of the wars and desasters that happened to the human race. I think we really need more women in power.

Regards,

Fred.

[mmurph]

Gentlemen, at least I've learned a specificity of the english ...
So in my language, we can see the difference from 30 feet=there are clearly visible differences.
Not that this has been scientificaly mesured with a laser  
I thought that the language of precision and absolute was german, I'm surprised and delighted to learn that it is actually english.

Close Fred - as if Fred were you're real name!

It means both "exactly 30' measured with a laser", AND "with your nose pressed hard against the print". But it also means "and no distances, however precisely specified, in between."

It is really the theory of limits, like calculus and quantum physics. The intermediate remains precisely undefined. You can, however, "vaguely undefine it", as in French.

Have you not listened to talk radio - surely everyone listens? - and heard them talk about the Fascist Socialists? Then you have my biologist brother-in-law, who is also a creationist, and believes the earth is 6,000 years old (true story. )

How else can one explain this whole thread?

Cheers, Mr Alexis de Tocqueville! And you thought I did not watch The Pink Panther! Ha!

M.

[fredjeang]

Close Fred - as if Fred were you're real name!

It means both "exactly 30' measured with a laser", AND "with your nose pressed hard against the print". But it also means "and no distances, however precisely specified, in between."

It is really the theory of limits, like calculus and quantum physics. The intermediate remains precisely undefined. You can, however, "vaguely undefine it", as in French.

Have you not listened to talk radio - surely everyone listens? - and heard them talk about the Fascist Socialists? Then you have my biologist brother-in-law, who is also a creationist, and believes the earth is 6,000 years old (true story. )

How else can one explain this whole thread?

Cheers, Mr Alexis de Tocqueville! And you thought I did not watch The Pink Panther! Ha!

M.

 that is exactly why I did a Leica M clouseau inspector one day here...

[michael]

This thread has been fun (for some, not so much for others), but it's time to draw it to a close as it has gotten too long and tangential.

Mark Dubovoy and I have discussed the controversy and decided to remove the offending paragraph. It was a bit hyperbolic and off-hand, and not within the spirit of the rest of the review.

I have therefore added the following section to the review. Please feel free to start a new thread on this topic, as closing it is not intended as censorship, just a bit of good housekeeping.


Paragraph Removed – Editor

The paragraph below was part of the original article. It caused quite a bit of controversy on this site's forum and elsewhere. I initially added a comment to the bottom of the article, but that wasn't sufficient. Too many people's favourite ox had already been gored.

Please consider the paragraph below to be removed. There's no point in actually removing it, because once on the net, things last forever, and undoubtedly some of the zealots would consider it a coverup if we did so.


The reason that Mark and I have decided to remove it is not because we don't agree with its basic sentiment, but because it is serving as a distraction for the main point of the review, which is a comparison between two different medium format backs.

There is wide agreement among photographers that use or have used both formats that MF has an advantage of several F/stops in DR versus the small cameras. The precise number will vary depending on the specific camera and back being compared as well as the comparison methodology, but the difference is quite noticeable in actual images. From 30 feet away? Maybe not. Let's just chalk that phrase up as a bit of editorial hyperbole rather than something intended to be taken literally.

The issue of the differences between medium format and 35mm is a fascinating one though, and Mark and I intend on pursuing it in greater depth in the days ahead, and with more rigour than with a throw-away line or two.

Michael