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Author Topic: DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S  (Read 5484 times)

Josh-H

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« on: February 18, 2010, 06:52:48 am »

Its an interesting comparison - I would not base a buying decision soley on this comparison (I feel there are many other mitigating items not taken into account by DXO such as pixel count, ergonomics, existing lens's owned etc.. But it does show just how far Nikon have come with their current range of cameras.

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Nikon and Canon launched their new top-of-the-line cameras for news and sports photography at the end of 2009. The Nikon D3s replaced the NikonD3, and the Canon EOS 1D Mark IV replaces the Canon EOS 1D Mark III.
On the one hand, the Nikon D3sís sensor specifications remain very close to those of the Nikon D3; on the other hand, Canon replaced the Mark IIIís 10 Mpix sensor with a new 15.9 Mpix sensor with the same sensor surface.
The Nikon D3s sensor achieves a DxOMark score almost 10 points higher in comparison with the Canon 1D Mark IV (82.4 vs 73.6), which is pretty close to the compared DxOMark scores of their predecessors (Nikon D3 and 1D Mark III, respectively 80.6 and 71). This difference can be explained by the sensor surface: The 1D Mark IV sensor surface is 1.66 times smaller than the NikonD3s. So theoretically, the gap between these two sensors is 0.73 f-stop, leading to a loss of 11 points on the DxOMark Sensor scale for the 1D Mark IV.
Measured differences follow the same pattern as for their predecessors:
Previous full -frame results are close to 80:

The Comparison
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 06:54:22 am by Josh-H »
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fredjeang

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 09:15:41 am »

Quote from: Josh-H
Its an interesting comparison - I would not base a buying decision soley on this comparison (I feel there are many other mitigating items not taken into account by DXO such as pixel count, ergonomics, existing lens's owned etc.. But it does show just how far Nikon have come with their current range of cameras.



The Comparison
Josh,
These are 2 different animals.
The Canon is targeting mainly the Press (needs). 90% users of the Canon will shoot directly in JPEGs and send files in situ. It should be interesting to know about the jpeg Canon quality, it might be particulary high on this model.
The key is probably here: "This difference can be explained by the sensor surface: The 1D Mark IV sensor surface is 1.66 times smaller than the NikonD3s."
So it is 0.73 f/stop on paper as mentioned. But the Nikon outperforms the canon over that number, as it was expected.

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dudu307

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 10:34:50 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
These are 2 different animals.

What do you mean?  Both cameras have the exact same target, press and sports photography.

Regards.



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roanjohn

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 10:46:21 am »

Quote from: dudu307
What do you mean?  Both cameras have the exact same target, press and sports photography.

Regards.

+1

Although if you think of it, Canon has more pixels on a smaller sensor (compared to Nikon).
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fredjeang

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 12:05:15 pm »

In my understanding I think these cameras target different style and need. The fact that Canon has choosen an APS solution for a Pro camera is on purpose and target a specific niche of photographers that do not want FF and shoot jpeg.
I would say that the Nikon is first a Sport camera, but more versatile. Many pro use it for concerts etc...The Canon Has been thought more as a stricktly press camera.
I find their philosophy totally different at the end, and that is why I said "2 different animals".

Fred.
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roanjohn

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 04:36:14 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
In my understanding I think these cameras target different style and need. The fact that Canon has choosen an APS solution for a Pro camera is on purpose and target a specific niche of photographers that do not want FF and shoot jpeg.
I would say that the Nikon is first a Sport camera, but more versatile. Many pro use it for concerts etc...The Canon Has been thought more as a stricktly press camera.
I find their philosophy totally different at the end, and that is why I said "2 different animals".

Fred.

Hmmm.........not too sure about that.  The 1D cameras have always been APS-H and targeted towards photographers who demand a rugged body, precise AF with a high FPS - all of which are ideal for sports, concerts, weddings etc.... (Just like the Nikon D"X" series camera).  It just so happens that the Nikon has an edge on high ISO - but the new 1D is no slouch either.
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Josh-H

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 06:11:14 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
In my understanding I think these cameras target different style and need. The fact that Canon has choosen an APS solution for a Pro camera is on purpose and target a specific niche of photographers that do not want FF and shoot jpeg.
I would say that the Nikon is first a Sport camera, but more versatile. Many pro use it for concerts etc...The Canon Has been thought more as a stricktly press camera.
I find their philosophy totally different at the end, and that is why I said "2 different animals".

Fred.

I dont agree either. I think the target market for these cameras is pretty much the same. I also think that there are not a huge number of 1D shooters who shoot jpeg. There is just no compelling reason to do so unless an image is needed in less than 1 minute.
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JeffKohn

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 12:17:46 am »

Quote from: dudu307
What do you mean?  Both cameras have the exact same target, press and sports photography.
Definitely agree. If the 1D isn't Canon's Sports/PJ body, then they don't have one. I think what the comparison shows is that Canon and Nikon have chosen different approaches to targeting the Sports/PJ market.  I think Canon made a mistake in staying with APS-H while bumping the resolution for the 1Dm4.  It's surprising really, high-ISO noise performance was always Canon's advantage over Nikon in the pre-D3 days, but now the tables have been turned since then.
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Jeff Kohn
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fredjeang

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 04:15:45 am »

I got your points and still disagree.
From field, again, the kind of needs and photographers profile who use it is not the same, even if of course you find both in
the same areas. Josh pointed what is the difference.
Canon's 1D have 2 lines, and that is where is my point is.
One is FF (1Ds Mark3) and the other one is a much more 10MP APS specialized camera (1D Mark3):
The Canon involved in the test is the successor of this last one, not the successor of the FF model.
This is the 1D mark 4, not the 1Ds Mark 4. There is a little difference and it is not a Canon's mistake.
This camera is an upgrade of a model that differs from the Nikon in approach AND photographers needs and therefore this comparaison
is nothing less that predictible. It was obvious that the nikon will outperform the canon with such pixel-density. or not?
But if you watch the test thinking that these are 2 cameras in the same league I think you don't take that into consideration.
Also, thinking that in press very few photographers use jpegs and would shoot raw shows that you do not have all the information.
A lot of press photographers (even sports)  use only jpegs (yes sir...) and send their files in situ in a 15 minutes. No raw thinking.
If you where involved daily in that business you would not have said that, so I know that you are not.

I think that these precisions where at least necessary because the DXO test is totally tramp. You can think that Nikon have done a huge step,
or also think that the canon's, because of it specificity has done a good job...

Cheers,
Fred.
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Ken Bennett

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 07:38:57 am »

Hi, Fred,

Nikon has two lines of their pro cameras, too -- the D3 and the D3x, one is high speed lower resolution, the other is very high resolution at lower speed. Just like the Canon 1D vs 1Ds series.

The 1D series is targeted at photojournalists and sports photogs, and has been since the first 1D model (of which I still own two.) The 1Ds series is targeted at commercial and studio photogs, just like the D3x. (Note that the 1D series has an APS-H sensor, which is a 1.3x focal length conversion, not the 1.6x of the Canon APS cameras like the 7D, 40D, etc.)

In the past this was a much larger difference -- as computing power has improved, the "high speed" 1D series now has as many pixels in the 5th generation body as the 1Ds camera had in its second generation (1D Mark IV versus 1Ds Mark II, both at ~16 megapixels.) At some point, the 1D series body has enough resolution for pretty much any assignment, and I think we've reached that point.

As an aside, let me say that I agree with Jeff and wish Canon had gone with a full frame solution for the new 1D series camera. While I have been shooting the 1D series since it came out, I'd much prefer a full frame sensor at this point, but I need the shooting speed.
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fredjeang

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DXO has compared the Canon 1D MKIV to the Nikon D3S
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 08:56:58 am »

Quote from: k bennett
Hi, Fred,

Nikon has two lines of their pro cameras, too -- the D3 and the D3x, one is high speed lower resolution, the other is very high resolution at lower speed. Just like the Canon 1D vs 1Ds series.

The 1D series is targeted at photojournalists and sports photogs, and has been since the first 1D model (of which I still own two.) The 1Ds series is targeted at commercial and studio photogs, just like the D3x. (Note that the 1D series has an APS-H sensor, which is a 1.3x focal length conversion, not the 1.6x of the Canon APS cameras like the 7D, 40D, etc.)

In the past this was a much larger difference -- as computing power has improved, the "high speed" 1D series now has as many pixels in the 5th generation body as the 1Ds camera had in its second generation (1D Mark IV versus 1Ds Mark II, both at ~16 megapixels.) At some point, the 1D series body has enough resolution for pretty much any assignment, and I think we've reached that point.

As an aside, let me say that I agree with Jeff and wish Canon had gone with a full frame solution for the new 1D series camera. While I have been shooting the 1D series since it came out, I'd much prefer a full frame sensor at this point, but I need the shooting speed.
Ken,
I agree 100% with all you said and I think I now understand the other posts from this point of view.
So, yes we can consider that this test is based on similar tools, and despite the fact that Canon features APS, it does with the H and 1.3 wich makes it "comparable" to the FF Nikon.
Still think that Canon has studied their Pro target carefully before releasing this model and the majority did not want FF but another approach.
I admit that I was wrong thinking that this test was "unfair".
Now, from my familly, I know from very close the press milieu (80% Canon users) and generaly they do not shoot Raw, neither are so interested in a FF solution.
When this Canon had been released, they were very happy with the upgrade proposed.
Of course, it is obvious that some users would have prefered a more flexible FF solution, in the Nikon line and it is also totally respectable.

Fred.


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