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Author Topic: phantasies about camera  (Read 2551 times)

ljdart

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phantasies about camera
« on: February 10, 2010, 06:46:56 pm »

after reading the extensive and heart felt open letter from Micheal Reichman to Leica and then, later, following the discussions, I felt it was about time to give my thoughts on the matter.
So. I was thinking, why aren't there any third-party manufacturers that make cameras and start to play in a niche-market. That market is big enough worldwide. Why not making something like an open-source-camera?
I don't have an attachment to any brand in the sense that I want to defend it or oppose it to other brands as a totem.
I grew into Nikon since 1977. Then I bought an FM, a 3.5 28 and a 2.5 105. Later I added extension-tubes and a 4.5 300mm. And much later I bought a second-hand F4.
As an artist I never managed to get rich and finance some ueber-gear,  I had to be stingy with film.
Until, of course, the digital age broke out. Then some photography beast (an anthropologist might call it a straight-forward possession) woke up in me. First with a simple Sony, later with a versatile lumix fz super-zoom, and now, since some 3 years, with a Nikon d200. And I have to admit it, I started to learn photography. But it came with a price: rsi, repetitive strain injury. Of course it wasn't only the wrong handling of an F4. It is heavy, indeed, we should use two hands to do the job and not one to wave with it like it is a featherlight lumix. It also was the computer-mouse, a stressful job and every other heartache you can imagine a man can have. Nothing human is strange to me.
A serious rsi in my right arm with pain and worry gave way to some thinking about the ergonomics and handling of camera's.
At first glance it appears that the ergonomics of the pro-Nikons, Canons and Olly's (there must have been some inflation in the terminology, now there are no pro's anymore, but pro-sumer) are well developed and thought over. Observing a bit closer, and you realise that all the weight and action because of the design is to easily moved to the right hand, which gives in the course of time a real un-balance. Before you know it all the weight of the camera when carrying goes to the right hand and the right-index finger gets  all the load. In short terms it looks as if the camera is made for the hand, but later you start to feel the weight. Then, in the field I wish that my left hand would also fit so easily with the shape of the camera. And yes, of course I carry the brick around my neck, but every time I pick it up I use my right hand because there is such a nice grip for right. Every time in the heat of imaging I forget about balancing the weight. Only when when the camera goes to my right eye I start to use my left hand for support. But when I walk on, I forget about it again and moments later I see myself carrying the brick in my right hand on the grip. It is as if the design invites me to carry it like that. Perhaps you might say that the design of a camera like the d200 facilitates the development of a rsi for the right arm.
So, what might help in the design to invite the left hand to do some more work?
The traditional aperture-ring has moved from the left hand to the right index -or middle finger. So has focussing. The only thing left for left is the zoom (I mostly don't work with zooms) and some knobs for vr and af. For me those knobs are anti-intuïtieve and I have to remove the camera from my eye to switch them. I would suggest the return of the traditional aperture-ring and the focus-ring. Also, when possible, why not shape the bottom from the camera so that invites the left hand to carry the weight, not only when in exposure, but also between the images. Make a real two-hand camera and take care that the left eye might go as easily to the viewfinder as the right eye. Now my nose pushes buttons when I use my left eye.

And then wishful thinking took the viewfinder as an object. After the f4 I was dissatisfied with the viewfinder on the d200. But it does the job, as long as I don't want to do critical things with critical lenses. It is a good ground-glass, but to small for my bad eyes.
I don't have live-view on the d200, but I imagined how easy a lcd-monitor could be made into something like they had on on a rolleiflex, including a looking-glass (why don't they, why must it be such a cramped thing at the camera-back?). Then I could hold the camera with both my hands on the belly and leisurely make my composition. That must be easy to produce with contemporary techniques. The size from the sensor doesn't matter for such a viewfinder, it is the viewfinder that matters. But then again, I think zigview is making something that can be connected with the hdmi-port. But that thing appears to have a lousy lcd-screen and can't be attached on top of the camera. Ricoh makes a modular camera with a rather good viewfinder, but then again, you can't swivel the screen nor shade it with a shaft.
Of course the screen needs to be good enough to focus with e.g. a Minolta 58 1.2 lens, or a nikkor 105 2.5, manually.
Actually, why aren't there any third- party camera's yet? Niche-players for Leica-lovers, something like mft, but then with an aperture-ring just between lens and body so that at least that dial would be on a good place again. With manual and only aperture-priority for automatic, one dial for under and over exposure (indeed for the right index-finger) and perhaps a knob for iso and wb. Who needs more?
So, what do I need on a camera?
1 good ergonomics that makes the left hand work: look at the old concepts for the place of the aperture-ring.
2 a good balance for left and right hand
3 a good viewfinder
4 a very good lcd-screen that can be used for manual focussing
5 the viewfinder or the lcd monitor must be big, something like they had on a rolleiflex
6 the viewfinder on the olympus pen nr2 can be turned upward in an angle. I would love that on all other cameras, it helps to relieve  from some ache in neck and shoulders.
6 the Leica-concept for operating the camera: keep things simple and the important things at hand
7 it would be fun if a whole bunch of lenses from all kinds of manufacturers could be used on the camera, something that is developing now with mft (why not with a full-frame sensor?). Wouldn't this be a challenge for Fuji, Sigma and all the other manufacturers? It would be fun to have a modular system with a foveon-sensor or a fuji-sensor.
8 Vibration reduction is good enough when it is on the sensor. I would love to put an old 1.2 58 lens on a big Sony. That would make some low-light combination. Imagine vr on a nikon full-frame sensor with this lens.

well. I said all for now, hope for some addition and reactions, who's next with suggestions for third-party-niche-players?
yours, ljd (bert dalmolen)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 06:53:47 pm by ljdart »
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Rob C

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phantasies about camera
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 05:14:09 am »

Third-party manufacturing: I once wrote to Leica asking why they didn't also sell their lenses in Nikon mounts; they ignored that question and told me that they (Leica) made great cameras... I suppose it all gets tied up with competition and legalities.

Regarding your F4: I bought an F4s because my older F and F2 were both worn out. I found the self-loading system - supposed to be a great new help! - actually made me have to attempt to load films at least two or three times ever time. I bought it because I had understood the F3 to be out of production. However, I later discovered it to be one of Nikon's best-kept secrets that it was still being made, so the F4s went and an F3 came home with me.

D200. If you buy yourself the magnifier for the eyepiece - the DK-21M - you will find that it improves the viewing greatly. It seems, on the maths, a very small increase in magnification, but in practice it is very noticeable indeed. Well worth the few €s! It made using mine very much easier. The viewfinder on the D700 needs no such aids - with my eyesight, which isn't great anymore - and either camera is now easy to use.

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:14:45 am by Rob C »
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ljdart

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phantasies about camera
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 06:10:17 am »

Dear Rob C, I will try that dk21m eye-piece.

I had the same kind of seduction with the F4: I went to find a good f3 and then someone offered me an f4. Great camera, or maybe more a locomotive for filmtransport that eats a lot of juice to make it happen.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:12:12 am by ljdart »
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fredjeang

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phantasies about camera
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 09:38:31 am »

Hi,

An open source camera would indeed be a good idea!

As for suggestions to the makers...I gave up this topic to be frank. After all the post I've been reading here and in some other serious sites ( and there aren't many ) it is obvious than camera manufacturers do not care a [....] of users opinions, as well as they are not interested at all in any letter, petition etc...
I think for example (sadly) that the Michael letter to Leica will have ZERO effect. They have their logical, their priorities and their objectives.

I must say that I'm impressed here (in a good way) of the David Grover's work in the forum. If I were an Hasselblad user, I'll be pleased to feel that the company where I invested takes the time to be close to their users.
Just for that reason, when I move to MFD I might consider the Hasselblad option very seriously.

But most companies just don't understand how important are such details.

http://www.opensourcecamera.org/
http://www.petapixel.com/2009/09/04/stanfo...camera-project/

Fred.
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ljdart

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phantasies about camera
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 01:10:46 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Hi,

An open source camera would indeed be a good idea!

As for suggestions to the makers...I gave up this topic to be frank. After all the post I've been reading here and in some other serious sites ( and there aren't many ) it is obvious than camera manufacturers do not care a [....] of users opinions, as well as they are not interested at all in any letter, petition etc...
I think for example (sadly) that the Michael letter to Leica will have ZERO effect. They have their logical, their priorities and their objectives.

I must say that I'm impressed here (in a good way) of the David Grover's work in the forum. If I were an Hasselblad user, I'll be pleased to feel that the company where I invested takes the time to be close to their users.
Just for that reason, when I move to MFD I might consider the Hasselblad option very seriously.

But most companies just don't understand how important are such details.

http://www.opensourcecamera.org/
http://www.petapixel.com/2009/09/04/stanfo...camera-project/

Fred.

lol, I understand that I'm inventing the wheel. also try this: http://www.efilming.com/english/productsho...id=100&key=   Sometimes I think it is all about contemporary marketing: divide and sell. Always take care that the thing you sell is very good, but also take care somthing is to be desired, else the follow-up sales are less. For me it would mean nikon d200, then the d400, then the d600. Suppose Nikon or canon would make a dslr with a sensor-based vr, Or that panasonic would make one, or olympus would make a pen with a very good lcd monitor and swell ergonomics?

ljdart

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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 03:12:43 pm »

So, I decided to buy a lumix g1 with a novoflex-adaptor, and I love the combination with the heavy 1.2 58 mf, it holds and controls as if made for eachother. The viewfinder is good, and the flip-screen is good. And I think it's a shame panasonic did not include a sensor-based vibrition reduction. That would be fun with this camera. Perhaps olympus will make somthing like that in the future (why not doing things right at once?).
But I am surprised by the image-quality. I thought that the newer cmos mft sensor would be matching the much older nikon d200 sensor. It does not. Indeed, the dynamics are something to reckon with. I tend to underexpose because of blown highlights. But then you get very muddy and wrongly grained darks. I am no pixel-peeper, I do like the grainy noise on the nikon d200 when using 800 iso. But the noise on the mft lumix is ugly and already starts at 200 iso because of the low dynamics of the sensor. The image quality is not a disappointment, actually very workable, but I expected better.
Perhpaps this is my mistake or perception, I did not test everything yet. I convert the raw files to dng and process them in lightroom 1.4  I haven't taken trouble to try out silky-pix...

Anyway, dispite some issues with image-quality compared to the old d200, the combination can produce good images:

[attachment=20590:cold_and..._cold_27.jpg]
[attachment=20589:cold_and..._cold_17.jpg]

full series on http://picasaweb.google.com/bertdalmolen/J...feat=directlink

In the series a mix from d200 and g1. For the g1 I  not only have a 1.2 58 rokkor, but also purchased a 3.5 100 macro and a a 4.200mm. The 3.5 100 macro rokkor is amazing, the 4.200 rokkor not bad at all and very light.

To Rob C: I did buy a the DK-21M eyepiece for the d200, and indeed it works great. Thanks for the advice :-)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 03:50:24 pm by ljdart »
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Rob C

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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 04:25:31 pm »

Quote from: ljdart
To Rob C: I did buy a the DK-21M eyepiece for the d200, and indeed it works great. Thanks for the advice :-)





Glad to have been of help!

;-)

Rob C
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