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Author Topic: L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"  (Read 10445 times)

daws

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« on: January 13, 2010, 09:41:10 pm »

[blockquote]
Quote
Raising a stink over printer ink
Officials who regulate weights and measures for states are preparing for a showdown with manufacturers over how ink cartridges are labeled.[/b]
Los Angeles Times
January 13, 2010

An ounce of filet mignon can cost you $1 at your grocery store -- and the butcher won't hesitate to quote you the price.

But the cost of ink for your computer's printer? It can rival the cost of caviar -- and you won't be able to pin down the price because the companies that make those expensive little cartridges don't want to tell you how much ink they contain.

The price of printer cartridges has long irritated consumers and their advocates, and they say the lack of information from manufacturers only aggravates the situation. One recent study even estimated that consumers could save billions of dollars a year if they were armed with full information about how much it would cost to operate various printers.

Consumer advocates' push for more information has been getting some attention lately, setting up a showdown between regulators and cartridge manufacturers over how the cartridges are labeled.

Manufacturers of printer cartridges say they aren't required to follow laws such as the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act, so they usually don't say how much ink is in a cartridge. They prefer instead to estimate how many pages your printer will churn out before you need to replace the cartridge.

That irks consumer advocates, who question why cartridges can cost $30, $40 or more while containing only a fraction of an ounce of ink that, on its own, costs the manufacturer less than $1. In addition, they say, the tests that produce the page-printing estimates have their own problems and inaccuracies. At the very least, adding the ink volume information would be useful for consumers wanting to make comparisons.

Now the National Conference on Weights and Measures, a group of state weights and measures officials, plans to take up the issue at its meeting this month in Nashville, Tenn.

A decision by that body can have effects across the country.

"It's time to sort all of this out," said Max Gray, chief of Florida's Bureau of Weights and Measures, who originally submitted the issue to the national group.

The industry has already told weights and measures officials they can expect a fight. Lexmark International Inc., one company that sells the cartridges, argued in a recent letter that disclosing ink volumes would actually be misleading to consumers.

The cartridges, which Lexmark describes as micro-machines, can use varying amounts of ink based on print quality and the amount of ink deposited on a page, so a comparison based on quantity of ink would be misleading, the company says. And the cost of the ink is only a small part of the cartridges' cost, the letter said.

"Treating these sophisticated machines as though they were mere containers for ink is inappropriate," said Charles Kratzer, an attorney for Lexmark.

The letter goes on to note that for decades, ink, including that in ink cartridges, has been exempted from labeling laws.

But that position was recently rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which has a unit that helps oversee weights and measures laws. Ink cartridges need a statement of "liquid measure" to comply with regulations, the institute said.

Most printer manufacturers, except Kodak, sell the printers at low cost and then earn big profits on the cartridges. The American Consumer Institute in a study in late 2008 said that consumers were being lured into a bad deal by buying the lower-cost printers and then overpaying an estimated $6 billion per year for the cartridges.
[/blockquote]Full text here.
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bill t.

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 10:30:25 pm »

I'll compromise.  Keep ink cartridges priced where they are now, but give me an Epson 11880 for free.

Anyway, it's the stupid maintenance tank that gets my ire.  I should be able to mail it back and get a refund for all the ink contained therein, that's what those guys should be thinking about.
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Peter McLennan

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2010, 10:46:21 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
Anyway, it's the stupid maintenance tank that gets my ire.

Me, too.  Throwing away both the ink and the receptacle that contains it is irresponsible for both the consumer and the supplier. I recycle my maintenance tanks, but I have to work hard to beat Epson in order to do it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 10:46:57 pm by Peter McLennan »
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DanielStone

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2010, 10:51:37 pm »

MAINTENANCE TANKS:

I remember reading(maybe it was here?) that the author re-used his maintenance tanks, by removing the foam/absorbent material inside, and replacing it with super-absorbent FEMININE PADS.

so, if you have a wife, or g/f, give it a try .

I haven't done this, but it might be worth reading into though?

-Dan
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aduke

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2010, 11:43:29 pm »

Quote from: DanielStone
MAINTENANCE TANKS:

I remember reading(maybe it was here?) that the author re-used his maintenance tanks, by removing the foam/absorbent material inside, and replacing it with super-absorbent FEMININE PADS.

so, if you have a wife, or g/f, give it a try .

I haven't done this, but it might be worth reading into though?

-Dan

The pad is not the only problem, the tanks are chipped. You'll need a chip resetter as well. These seem to be available for about the price of a new tank.

Alan
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tived

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 01:14:08 am »

Quote from: aduke
The pad is not the only problem, the tanks are chipped. You'll need a chip resetter as well. These seem to be available for about the price of a new tank.

Alan

there is a way to reset this in the printer

Henrik
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Ernst Dinkla

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 05:26:02 am »

For Wide Formats the price per ml is a lot less. As low as 22 Eurocents ex VAT for the 750 ML carts. For A3 models it can go up to 3x 4x that price. What the article discusses are inks for desktop models that are as expensive as their second cartridge set. You can expect ink pricing like that then. 2 Euro a ML is possible. Caviar is more than 3.50 Euro a gram which probably is about 1 ML too. Highly overpriced to my taste.

However you can get A4 models (office printers) with black carts that cost 42 Eurocents excl VAT per ML, color 1 Euro in smaller carts. All OEM. Remanufactured third party ink carts half the price. The printer about 150 $. With products like printers you have to calculate before buying and not afterwards.

There are wide format models without maintenance tanks that are frugal on ink too. As far as I know the latest Epson model tanks can not be reset yet but reset 9600 tanks can be used in them and the Canon tanks have to be reset in time before they are declared empty.  If I recall all this correctly ....... as it isn't my problem.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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aduke

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 11:37:19 am »

Quote from: tived
there is a way to reset this in the printer

Henrik

I didn't know that. Do you have a reference to the procedure?

Alan
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Peter McLennan

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 11:41:12 am »

Quote from: aduke
The pad is not the only problem, the tanks are chipped. You'll need a chip resetter as well. These seem to be available for about the price of a new tank.
Alan

My chip resetter from www.inksupply.com cost me about $15, if I recall correctly. That's about a third of the price of a new tank. I refill my tanks with cotton balls.  Easy to install and remove, but a little messy.


Tanks could be reset from the front panel via a workaround on the Epson 4000.  Epson changed the 4800 to prevent this.  Nice work, Epson.


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Alan Goldhammer

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 02:42:31 pm »

The ISO standard for inkjet printers is pretty useless for our purposes since we are doing photo printing as opposed to printing out letters and documents.  I've looked at the Epson site where they discuss this issue and it is not informative at all.  I think the capacities of the 2880 is about 13 ml and that of the 3880 is about 70 ml so we can do some basic cost calculations.  In addition Mark Segal and others have posted information on real life yields.  Still one can be sympathetic to more transparency in this area.
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JeffKohn

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 03:40:10 pm »

I was in Fry's last weekend with my father-in-law who was interested in a cheap photo printer. There was a Canon rep there and he made a big point of saying that Canon lists the ink volume on their replacement cartridges and Epson does not. So I guess Canon has decided to use this as a marketing point.
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Jeff Kohn
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AFairley

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 03:41:32 pm »

And the cost of the ink is only a small part of the cartridges' cost, the letter said.

Let's see, that would be because of the cost of the electronics put in the cartridges to keep you from using third party inks....
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Ernst Dinkla

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 04:38:29 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
I was in Fry's last weekend with my father-in-law who was interested in a cheap photo printer. There was a Canon rep there and he made a big point of saying that Canon lists the ink volume on their replacement cartridges and Epson does not. So I guess Canon has decided to use this as a marketing point.

If you want to make the rules tighter and keep ecological aspects controlled too then there are several things to change:

Content in ML on the carts.

Separate carts with a minimum content of 50 ML each to keep packaging/ink ratio sensible.

A 12 hour test period in a 100%  humidity lab, printing 200 sheets at best quality and worst quality, standard average photo image, standard average document, power on - power off periods included. Simply measuring by weight where ink is wasted in the printer or in carts that are declared empty + the sheets weight gain. No check on image quality.

Introduction of an ISO ratio quote of wasted ink versus ink that lands on the paper.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/










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Peter McLennan

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2010, 03:10:02 pm »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
If you want to make the rules tighter and keep ecological aspects controlled too then there are several things to change:
Introduction of an ISO ratio quote of wasted ink versus ink that lands on the paper.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

OK, here's a data point on wasted ink vs ink that lands on the paper.

I'm a "hobby" user, not a production house.  I dont' get paid for my prints.  
I use an Epson 4800 and by and large I'm delighted with the quality of images it produces.  

I'd better be delighted.

Since my last maintenance tank exchange about six months ago, I've made about 50 letter size and 20 16X20 sized prints and I have done about five "auto" head cleanings due to this infrequent use.   Each "auto" head cleaning took about three sheets of paper.  I just took the opportunity to compare the weights of the Epson 4800 maintenance tank both empty and full.  The printer has pumped 478 grams of ink overboard in an ongoing attempt to keep printing normally.

At 1 gram per ml and $100 per 200 ml cart, that's over $200 in wasted ink.  In six months of infrequent use.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 03:57:38 pm by Peter McLennan »
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bradleygibson

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2010, 04:39:25 pm »

Quote from: Peter McLennan
At 1 gram per ml and $100 per 200 ml cart, that's over $200 in wasted ink.  In six months of infrequent use.

Hi, Peter,

Yes--I've experienced similar huge wastage with my Epson as well.  Should be illegal, as far as I'm concerned.  And the nozzle test prints also waste paper too, also to the manufacturer's benefit.  *deep breath*

FYI, because I feel ripped off, I've recently switched to Cone pigment inks and so far, so good.  In 1L quantities, they're ~1/3 the price and involve transparent, user-refillable cartridges.  I'd like to go for 6 months or more before reporting on them, but so far, I cannot tell the difference in my workflow (using ImagePrint and the same ICC profiles).

My only affiliation with them is as a satisfied customer.

-Brad
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:42:37 pm by bradleygibson »
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-Brad
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Jon Shiu

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2010, 02:13:33 pm »

I think there was about 145g of ink in my Epson 3800 waste ink pad when I threw it out. I believe I read somewhere there is about 1.1ml per 1g of the epson ink.

Jon
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 02:14:01 pm by Jon Shiu »
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tim wolcott

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2010, 04:00:21 pm »

Printing equipment has never been so good.  I remember back when it cost a fortune to print under the enlargers and that's all we had.  
That said the pro-printers, I still thing are pretty cheap to run compared to the past.  Sure there are some issue with the printers like the Maintenance Tank.
 and a few other things, not delivering a printer to the market with no Papers to support it, not supplying profiles for the printers ect.

I'm surprised that there were so many photographers commenting on how expensive it is, we have never ever been able to make prints of this quality and at this price per square foot.

I have been doing inkjet pigment printing probably before anyone and even then they were inexpensive to run in reality.  But what they are currently talking about are to consumer printers which if these companies had half a brain and unite to get everyone to print green and archival inkjet.  They would have a bigger market share and save the world from this toxic flow that comes from chemically based papers and the developers, bleach and fixers of the color printing world.

If everyone used these printers and were up front and MARKETED correctly, there market share would be amazing and very profitable without ripping off the consumers.  But these short sighted greedy companies should educate the consumers and bring down the price per print and help save our water ways and rivers.  But many of these companies are being bought off by the big corporations processing one hour photos.  This is the real problem.  Bad Bad Marketing to get the change we need.  

In this case change would be good.  Imagine the whole world making non-fadeable photos and not polluting the planet.  

Your constant promoter of the pigment printing process since 1990.  Tim Wolcott
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bill t.

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 04:31:48 pm »

Quote from: tim wolcott
Imagine the whole world making non-fadeable photos and not polluting the planet.
The Cibachrome kits used to include a big bag of sodium bicarbonate which you were supposed to mix in with the soup before you tossed it down the drain.  Wasn't anything about being green...it was to keep your drain pipes from dissolving!  I sure Type C Blix was/is not much better.

And yes, it certainly is cheaper to make prints now that ever before.  When I was printing a lot Ektaprint C prints the costs were up around $4+ per 8x10, which included amortization and upkeep on the $11,000 hard-to-maintain Kreonite 20" wide roll processor and huge amounts of time mixing chemicals, cleaning, running process control strips on the $2,000 MacBeth colorimter, and generally trying to keep everything working.  Those are 1976 Dollars.  What a drag all that was, I feel so ashamed now to have dissed the maintenance tanks!  I ♥ Digital.
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feppe

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 05:01:09 pm »

Quote from: tim wolcott
I'm surprised that there were so many photographers commenting on how expensive it is, we have never ever been able to make prints of this quality and at this price per square foot.

Either you are missing the point, or I am. It's not so much about the outrageous prices of ink compared to most liquids, but more so about the extreme lengths one has to go to compare ink prices not only between manufacturers, but between models as well. Manufacturers have done everything in their power to not only obfuscate true price of ink/print, but also trying to prevent the use of alternate inks (which is another topic).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:02:43 pm by feppe »
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bill t.

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L.A. Times: "Raising a stink over printer ink"
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2010, 05:17:11 pm »

Actually I am willing to pay today's ink prices...provided the level of quality control remains where it is.

In thinking about the old processes, I remember how hard and time consuming it was dealing with color balance variations between different batches of paper and chemicals.  I place no small value on the fact that I don't have to do that with the Epson inks I now use.  I can swap every cartridge in my 9880 and still get exactly the same results as before.

It is hard to put a price on whatever the good manufacturer's do to maintain that level of consistency, but it should be worth something.  Imagine what it would be like if you had to tweak the color balance of your printing files every time you swapped a cartridge.
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