IMO

[rogan]

I've been pulling 3 to 4 am every night (morning) doing post production on this big end of the year rush project so sitting on an opposite desk is my TV.  You know those nights where you turn it on some  channel and you really don't have the time or inclination to change the station, mostly because of the fear something might come on that's interesting that will make you stop working, so last night it was on some cable's pbs station and the guy being interviewed on Charlie Rose was the CEO of Sirius radio.

I didn't really listen, just kept working until I heard this CEO say "the advertising model is not sustainable for media in today's world".

I kind of hit the brakes on that and thought for a moment, what's this guy talking about, then he explained that he was previously the CEO of CBS and came from the days of client's would pay 10's of  millions to run a Super Bowl spot, not be able to track it's results, never know if it worked or not but we're always standing in line to write the check.

He said when Google came out they F__ked up the magic, because for the first time an advertiser could track to see if their promotion was working.  (His words).

In other words he said they pissed on the parade.

That's what digital has done to Music, Photography, Art, Print, all forms of media.  It has pissed on the parade or to be more pc it has changed our role as photographers and more importantly changed the tools we use.

Gone are the days that any camera you buy is a 10 year system and a photographer is hired to shoot One shot.  In fact I don't believe there is any camera in the market that is exactly right for our new job description.

This year every photographer I know has complained about money, but the changes I've seen this year and most of last year was not the money available for a project but the time.  We are now squeezing everything into hours not days, minutes not hours.

Yesterday the client had a change and wanted to add wedding rings to three advertising images.  I sent a production person out to buy 4 rings, put them on white, shot 6 angles of each, built a gallery, send the raws to the retoucher, the gallery to the AD for selection the results to the retoucher and the finished images are out in 4 hours.   4 hours from shoot the rings to the client is downloading the finished images.

I guess my point of all of this in commerce, camera format is not that relevant and surely wasn't in my thought process yesterday when all I had was a few hours to change an image.  Photographers may  think so on the day of the shoot, or may like their favorite system, but once a project has gone through 5 stages of retouching, 6 different crops, people swaps, background changes, it just ceases to be any format.

In fact in the real world what is the format?  A laptop, a 24" monitor, a dell, an apple, an Eizo or a printed page?  Format really is the final destination.

So if any camera makers are reading this forum I suggest tearing it up and starting from a clean sheet.  Forget about formats, ground glass (plastic) 2:3 or 4:5 crops, forget about all this legacy stuff and really step into today.  Make a camera that tethers easy, has an EVIL viewfinder, movable crops, shoots video and stills, live view for critical focus and moveable iso.

Stop this proprietary, secret file format stuff and open the file up so people can write plugs ins and apps that go directly in camera to make any film the look you want.   (See Iphone Apps).  In fact allow me to embed my film look into a raw file that any processor will see (including photoshop).

Write some raw file compression schemes that allow us to get a project into the 500mb territory.  Data storage, backup and delivery is a monster right now and since I'm sitting on hundreds of terabytes of images and each project easily goes to multiple terabytes per project I can't stress how important file size is.  In fact in the last 7 days I've shipped over 2 terabytes of finished images on line through links.  

Stop fooling around with almost video on a still camera system, almost stills on a video camera system and give us something that just requires a change of some module to allow our one system to work in both arenas.  (see RED's wish list).

And most of all when you want information and feedback,  don't go to the photographer's that will do anything to be featured by your camera company, go to the photographers and their clients that are producing work in the new real world.

In fact listen to this Sirius Radio CEO when he says Content Is King, because he's right and I can promise you he doesn't care if it was shot on a Canon, a Hasselblad a Red or a Casio.  He cares if it get's ratings, good customer results and is unique because beautiful and/or unique get's attention.  Of course he also cares about the bottom line and if any of those mentioned brands gets the desired result then he's fine, we're all fine.

In fact if you told this CEO or his ad agency that I contribute on a forum that only allows talk of one type of camera format his eyes would probably cross.  I might as well tell him to forget satellite radio and go back to the phonograph.

So with all of this in mind it's not the camera I think of anymore unless the camera gets in my way and it's definitely not the format of the camera or the ability to produce micro detail under controlled conditions at 200% web crops.  It's what I produce that gets us work and most importantly it's  the final destination of the photograph that I think about . . . that and what's next ?

BC

Amen

[gdwhalen]

" Pro comes home, then thinks, "Damn, I'm hungry, I need a drink", but then he realizes he's got to convert all those RAWs tonight, into JPGs, for client review tomorrow. So he orders Dominoes, and gets a Snicker bar out of the hotel vending machine. The pro goes thru that routine three or four times, and then miraculously, the fifth job, the Hasselblad is gone and in its place, lying on the bad hotel bedspread is a Nikon or Canon. He still orders Dominoes, but at least he gets eight hours sleep that night."




Not meaning to pick on you but I will use this above quote as a reference.  Wouldn't it be preferable for you to relate to what YOU do.  I see it quite a bit in here where people respond with a very broad brush as if, what they say, is the way it is - for everyone.  You do not know what all pro's do.  You know what you do.  Please try to speak from your thoughts and your experiences and let all of the other "you's" in the world speak for themselves.  A tad too omnipotent to me.

[Phil Indeblanc]

" Pro comes home, then thinks, "Damn, I'm hungry, I need a drink", but then he realizes he's got to convert all those RAWs tonight, into JPGs, for client review tomorrow. So he orders Dominoes, and gets a Snicker bar out of the hotel vending machine. The pro goes thru that routine three or four times, and then miraculously, the fifth job, the Hasselblad is gone and in its place, lying on the bad hotel bedspread is a Nikon or Canon. He still orders Dominoes, but at least he gets eight hours sleep that night."




Not meaning to pick on you but I will use this above quote as a reference.  Wouldn't it be preferable for you to relate to what YOU do.  I see it quite a bit in here where people respond with a very broad brush as if, what they say, is the way it is - for everyone.  You do not know what all pro's do.  You know what you do.  Please try to speak from your thoughts and your experiences and let all of the other "you's" in the world speak for themselves.  A tad too omnipotent to me.

Wow...that is simply put so well...."You know what you do".   Sooo true.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Happy New Year!

Have a look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_H8TOKcfjg

Best,
Johannes

hahhaa...its obvious the only true winner in the video are the polariods that withstood the sea splash.

[Don Libby]

I’m a landscape photography who just happens to use as his primary choice of equipment a Cambo WRS1000/P45+.  The choice word is “primary” as I also have and use a 1DsII that’s been converted to IR as well as a 1DsIII; I’ll also be picking up a Leica M-9 along with a couple of choice lens – all to achieve my chosen profession which is fine art landscape photography.  

I don’t care a rats *** what you use to capture your images as you really only have two people who need to be happy; you and the guy buying the end product.  What I did get tired of reading was all the comparisons being made between 35mm and MF.  It’s comparing apples to olives.  There’s no doubt that 35mm is good, there’s little doubt that MF is better just as there’s no doubt that LF is better than MF.  Each has it’s own unique use and it’s up to the photographer to figure which took is better suited.  Yes I said “tool”.  A camera as far as I’m concerned is noting more than a tool or means for capturing an image I can make money on; much the same as a carpenter uses a hammer or saw.

The thread I really enjoyed up to the point of some people screwing around with it was sharing recent works and I was glad to be a participant.  If the title says show us your professional works that should mean just that.  It should not be meant to be taken as file format specific.  Hell a professional can take a great image with a cell phone!

I’ve made a point of staying away from here for a couple months in hopes of a self-policing, self-correcting effect taking place and in some minor part it has.

There’s a lot of discussion of late that this is a “Pro Section”.  Since when did pros only use one format?  Since when do pros not mentor?  When was the last time anyone thanked Michael for putting up with the rude childish behavior that no one would put up with if they were in someone’s home or place of business?

This is the end of a year and the beginning of a new one.  I hope that the new year brings a new attitude.

Happy New Year to all!

Don  

[GiorgioNiro]

I've been pulling 3 to 4 am every night (morning) doing post production on this big end of the year rush project so sitting on an opposite desk is my TV.  You know those nights where you turn it on some  channel and you really don't have the time or inclination to change the station, mostly because of the fear something might come on that's interesting that will make you stop working, so last night it was on some cable's pbs station and the guy being interviewed on Charlie Rose was the CEO of Sirius radio.

I didn't really listen, just kept working until I heard this CEO say "the advertising model is not sustainable for media in today's world".

I kind of hit the brakes on that and thought for a moment, what's this guy talking about, then he explained that he was previously the CEO of CBS and came from the days of client's would pay 10's of  millions to run a Super Bowl spot, not be able to track it's results, never know if it worked or not but we're always standing in line to write the check.

He said when Google came out they F__ked up the magic, because for the first time an advertiser could track to see if their promotion was working.  (His words).

In other words he said they pissed on the parade.

That's what digital has done to Music, Photography, Art, Print, all forms of media.  It has pissed on the parade or to be more pc it has changed our role as photographers and more importantly changed the tools we use.

Gone are the days that any camera you buy is a 10 year system and a photographer is hired to shoot One shot.  In fact I don't believe there is any camera in the market that is exactly right for our new job description.

This year every photographer I know has complained about money, but the changes I've seen this year and most of last year was not the money available for a project but the time.  We are now squeezing everything into hours not days, minutes not hours.

Yesterday the client had a change and wanted to add wedding rings to three advertising images.  I sent a production person out to buy 4 rings, put them on white, shot 6 angles of each, built a gallery, send the raws to the retoucher, the gallery to the AD for selection the results to the retoucher and the finished images are out in 4 hours.   4 hours from shoot the rings to the client is downloading the finished images.

I guess my point of all of this in commerce, camera format is not that relevant and surely wasn't in my thought process yesterday when all I had was a few hours to change an image.  Photographers may  think so on the day of the shoot, or may like their favorite system, but once a project has gone through 5 stages of retouching, 6 different crops, people swaps, background changes, it just ceases to be any format.

In fact in the real world what is the format?  A laptop, a 24" monitor, a dell, an apple, an Eizo or a printed page?  Format really is the final destination.

So if any camera makers are reading this forum I suggest tearing it up and starting from a clean sheet.  Forget about formats, ground glass (plastic) 2:3 or 4:5 crops, forget about all this legacy stuff and really step into today.  Make a camera that tethers easy, has an EVIL viewfinder, movable crops, shoots video and stills, live view for critical focus and moveable iso.

Stop this proprietary, secret file format stuff and open the file up so people can write plugs ins and apps that go directly in camera to make any film the look you want.   (See Iphone Apps).  In fact allow me to embed my film look into a raw file that any processor will see (including photoshop).

Write some raw file compression schemes that allow us to get a project into the 500mb territory.  Data storage, backup and delivery is a monster right now and since I'm sitting on hundreds of terabytes of images and each project easily goes to multiple terabytes per project I can't stress how important file size is.  In fact in the last 7 days I've shipped over 2 terabytes of finished images on line through links.  

Stop fooling around with almost video on a still camera system, almost stills on a video camera system and give us something that just requires a change of some module to allow our one system to work in both arenas.  (see RED's wish list).

And most of all when you want information and feedback,  don't go to the photographer's that will do anything to be featured by your camera company, go to the photographers and their clients that are producing work in the new real world.

In fact listen to this Sirius Radio CEO when he says Content Is King, because he's right and I can promise you he doesn't care if it was shot on a Canon, a Hasselblad a Red or a Casio.  He cares if it get's ratings, good customer results and is unique because beautiful and/or unique get's attention.  Of course he also cares about the bottom line and if any of those mentioned brands gets the desired result then he's fine, we're all fine.

In fact if you told this CEO or his ad agency that I contribute on a forum that only allows talk of one type of camera format his eyes would probably cross.  I might as well tell him to forget satellite radio and go back to the phonograph.

So with all of this in mind it's not the camera I think of anymore unless the camera gets in my way and it's definitely not the format of the camera or the ability to produce micro detail under controlled conditions at 200% web crops.  It's what I produce that gets us work and most importantly it's  the final destination of the photograph that I think about . . . that and what's next ?

BC

Hey BC,
With you, could not have said it better.
Will anyone hear you is the question.

[Carsten W]

Hey BC,
With you, could not have said it better.
Will anyone hear you is the question.

B. Cooter speaks really well, no doubt about it, and he speaks from deep experience and insight. I very much enjoy his posts, and I read them all thoroughly, looking for little tidbits I can use, and ways of thinking about the fastest-paced segments of the U.S. fashion industry, but he still speaks only for that segment. Fine Art and Landscape photographers are taking their time as much as they ever were, because that is how they get the best images, and thus the highest return. There is also a slower part of the fashion segment which isn't shooting video and isn't working until 3 or 4 every night, and he can't speak for them either. Personally, I am very happy that there is a large variety of experiences here, from Don Libby to B. Cooter to Rainer Viertlböck and Christopher Barrett, and so on. It makes this an interesting place to read about it all.

[paul_jones]

I've been pulling 3 to 4 am every night (morning) doing post production

mr cooter, you seem like a pretty busy guy. why don't you have an assistant doing all the post for you?  sure its good to do an edit, but all the processing and backup etc you could be getting some rest. im sure it would improve your quality of work ultimately, and reduce stress levels.

paul

[Phil Indeblanc]

B. Cooter speaks really well, no doubt about it, and he speaks from deep experience and insight. I very much enjoy his posts, and I read them all thoroughly, looking for little tidbits I can use, and ways of thinking about the fastest-paced segments of the U.S. fashion industry, but he still speaks only for that segment. Fine Art and Landscape photographers are taking their time as much as they ever were, because that is how they get the best images, and thus the highest return. There is also a slower part of the fashion segment which isn't shooting video and isn't working until 3 or 4 every night, and he can't speak for them either. Personally, I am very happy that there is a large variety of experiences here, from Don Libby to B. Cooter to Rainer Viertlböck and Christopher Barrett, and so on. It makes this an interesting place to read about it all.

True.  As there is no doubt in mind that BC puts out top notch work from looking at his body of work, and recently seeing it in magazine print. Bravo, and in many ways I do belive a differnt and new system may emerge....And I want to say that in the vast body of work, I didn't see a demand for MF, but who is anyone to say such, as a level of pixel perfection can be personal, until you get to a point in subject matter that it is preferred and needed, I.E. Beauty, Still Life macro, jewelry, etc.    

But as the Don put it...they are TOOLS, and we always have more than one to use for the specific job.  (sometimes you need a scalpel, sometimes a hatchet....(sounds familiar also).  

I don't know any artist who uses 1 brush to cover all their styles of work.

[Fritzer]

Well, imo , I know exactly why I'm using an MFDB, and I know why I have no choice but using one in what I do.
I'm using 35mm , too, and I also know why it must be a full-format camera with 20+MP for my purposes.

Neither is better than the other, or a pinhole camera, depending on what one's requirements are.

But in this forum , most times all kind of comparisons come down to people claiming the more expensive system is equaled by the less expensive one.
That's wrong; a pro uses the the sort of tool he needs, for reasons which amateurs and semi-pros don't understand, due to a lack of experience in the business.

I for one am very interested about any of Rainer's testings, as I know where he's coming from and is in a position to judge not only qualiilty, but comparable usefulness of gear.

The Red and such are a very interesting topics, as this is a development pro's will need to face.

But if a Sony or such gave me a better file, but I can't get rentals in every major city, or the file size is too small when I need Aptus 75 16bit size and a view camera for a particular assignment, it's out of the equation, like it doesn't even exist, period.

Anyone who wonders why that is, doesn't know the very basics of the craft, is not in a position to discuss better or worse, or anything related.
And these amateurs, they won't even listen, telling you how magazine x printed their cropped-sensor thingy shot no problem, how there's no difference , hence their gear is good enough for everything else, yadada...

If I dare bring it up, in the former Rob Galbreith forums, MF discussion was almost exclusivly mid-hightier professional, and I learned something everyday.
Here , at least the manufacturer reps and dealers are still around, and a few pros; so I still learn something every other week.

[pschefz]

But in this forum , most times all kind of comparisons come down to people claiming the more expensive system is equaled by the less expensive one.
That's wrong; a pro uses the the sort of tool he needs, for reasons which amateurs and semi-pros don't understand, due to a lack of experience in the business.



If I dare bring it up, in the former Rob Galbreith forums, MF discussion was almost exclusivly mid-hightier professional, and I learned something everyday.
Here , at least the manufacturer reps and dealers are still around, and a few pros; so I still learn something every other week.

the problem is that in many situations the cheaper systems get the job done better, faster and with less problems....and the slightly lesser quality is just not an issue anymore....

price also does not mean much anymore...i saw a Hy6 LV75 demo body lens back for under 10000 on ebay...that file is definitely better then all DSLR.....and other backs are available much cheaper....

in the days of the RG forum the difference between files from DMF and DSLR were substantial....that difference has gotten smaller and smaller....

nobody here has ever claimed that any DSLR has a similar file to a P65....or that all jobs can be shot with one kit.....

it just seems that some people paid a lot of money for their DMF systems (as did i....) and now feel like they have to protect their status? or something like that?

i don't get why people are so militant about this whole thing anyway...i mean who cares what you shoot with? who cares what the title of this forum is?

one thing is for sure...if a certain architecture photographer with quite a bit of experience and a very nice body of work is looking into DSLR T/S lenses for serious work which has always been the domain of LF and later DMF, people should listen and think....

even the catholic church had to admit at one point (after burning some people to show who's boss....) that the earth is in fact round....

enjoy your equipment....use it to your advantage and come here for info...and simply skip the heretics....

[uaiomex]

Happy new year

[bcooter]

why don't you have an assistant doing all the post for you?

Everyone has their own business model and mine works for me.

The project I referenced in a large body of work and I have two retouchers contracted and working hard, though with client revisions coming in late in the day, retouchers working until mid evening, large downloads to my server at 340 to 400mb per section, that have to be opened, corrected and checked  . . . then put back onto the server for either further corrections or client downloads equals very late nights.

The last two years I've looked into the screen of the new reality of our industry and made a vow that this is the way it is, so I decdied to accept it and  get on with it.

The goal, the only goal is to meet client deadlines and exceed expectations and nothing should go out without my review, or input.

Once again this is personal but I'm not the Grapes Of Wrath type that sees a possible drought,  looks up into the sky and prays for rain.   I've seeded the clouds myself and that comes through sweat equity.

But that's my system, if there is an easier way I'm open to it, but then again I have no complaints.

Also for what it's worth, most of my clients are working close to the same hours.  I assume that's why their working.

BC

[Plekto]

In fact listen to this Sirius Radio CEO when he says Content Is King, because he's right and I can promise you he doesn't care if it was shot on a Canon, a Hasselblad a Red or a Casio.  He cares if it get's ratings, good customer results and is unique because beautiful and/or unique get's attention.  Of course he also cares about the bottom line and if any of those mentioned brands gets the desired result then he's fine, we're all fine.

Exactly.  In the end, cheap and "works" wins every time, because other than maybe for a photo gallery or a similar specific use where people are interested in every last detail, the boss will go for the $2500 camera that looks "good enough" almost every time.  And, to be honest, it really does almost every time.

A good example is if it's going to be in a magazine.  Most clients want roughly 300dpi optical equivalent at best(similar to dye-sub@300dpi).  Given that with framing and borders and so on, you're looking at a realistic 8x10 for even a full page ad - maybe closer to 7x8 if it's positioned horizontally and has copy above or below it.  Even at 400dpi 25MP is just overkill by the time it hits the actual page.  A Sony A850/900 will be closer to 500dpi. Plainly overkill.  

**from the adobe cs2 manual/help file**
Newspaper Ad (65-85 lpi) 130 - 170 ppi
Average Magazine & Brochure (133 lpi) 200 - 266 ppi
High End Magazine & Brochure (150 lpi) 225 - 300 ppi
Annual Report (177 lpi) 265 - 350 ppi
Fine Art & Coffee Table Books (200 lpi) 300 - 400 ppi
****

Specs on the A850/A900
• 6048 x 4032 (24M 3:2) - 11X17 is roughly(due to the 3:2 aspect ratio): (200X1.666X11)X(200X1.666X17) - 3666X5666, or 20MP - and that's rarely used, if ever, since actual printed materials tend to max out at 200LPI for most non-specialized things.  The 1.666 is to convert, roughly, for the Bayer pattern's effect on the LPI printed versus digital in both dimensions.   24.6MP is more than your client will likely ever use.

Essentially these tools are all overkill - just take the shot, submit the result after you've cleaned it up/tweaked with it in raw, and let them deal with the rest.

The client doesn't care.  They want their image to stick in their magazine or catalog and you could do that with any of these higher-end cameras.  So limiting this part of the forum to one type of camera when they all are pretty much well beyond what's required for an actual job is silly.

Perhaps a better change, then, would be to have a "professional/high-end photography(20mp+)" label?  This would cover the high-end stuff while leaving the consumer cameras and discussions in their own area.

[BlasR]

BC,

I like your riding.  Maybe I want you to work for me one day.

now here is the problem, some people like to be free,

they want to shot what ever they like when they like it, they don't want to eat pizza

or be up all night

I, me my self dear anyone the ask me i need it tomorrow, if you

don't have it, someone else will.

I will tell the person, get lost, go in get it from someone else.

Money is good but freedom is much better, no one, no body will tell me what to do, when to do it ( well except my wife, only because she is through).

But think about those the shoot landscape (me)  I make good money to pay for my equipments, in no one tell me what to do.

So lets end it here. is new year, and we need to enjoy it.

Between DSLR and MF is like night in day.  No way the anyone the shoot with MF will ever shot landscape with dslr.

you being attacked on two fronts, one inside and one outside. Stay tough, you’re going to need all your strength to get through this, but you will!


Now lets all put it to rest.  No more post about this. ≈ Happy New Year≈

[Jeremy Payne]

No way the anyone the shoot with MF will ever shot landscape with dslr.

Yeah ... there's no way any of us lowly DSLR-shooters could have ever blown out the sky as well as you did on your home page image with our crappy little cameras ...

Takes a big-a$$ back to get such a pure white with such perfect tonality.

Happy New Year!

[BlasR]

Yeah ... there's no way any of us lowly DSLR-shooters could have ever blown out the sky as well as you did on your home page image with our crappy little cameras ...

Takes a big-a$$ back to get such a pure white with such perfect tonality.

Happy New Year!

People like it like that sold 53 times 34x46
LOL

[Jonathan Wienke]

People like it like that sold 53 times 34x46
LOL

Which just goes to show P.T. Barnum was right...

[gdwhalen]

People like it like that sold 53 times 34x46
LOL

hahaha

[Jeremy Payne]

People like it like that sold 53 times 34x46
LOL

From what I hear, pure white does enlarge quite well!