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Author Topic: is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???  (Read 7008 times)

zobeleye

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« on: November 03, 2009, 03:06:00 am »

hello fellow computer warriors,
what has always unnerved me is that I can't get my NEFs from D3 and D700 to look like the incamera generated JPGs.
I juggle the controls in LR ( HSL, calibration,curves, sharpness, whatever ) and have not succeeded in getting the same look.
now I know that NX does a better job at that, but it's just too slow and tedious, compared to LR.
now the rendering of the colourchecker chart with the last profiles for nikons, that michael and jeff have shown in their tutorials seems pretty impressive, but I would like to be able to open the NEF, go to the same JPG and by measuring that , or analyzing that in the profile editor get them to look alike and then have a profile that I can use for that same light.
is that at all poosible?
or do I have to get the colourchecker and profile my cameras?
I also realized that there are many factors, not only colour rendering , but contrast settings and curveshapes as well, so profiling alone will probably not do.
thanks for your help
stephan
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madmanchan

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 11:18:33 pm »

You can start by trying some of the different color profiles in the Camera Calibration tab. This only gives you a starting point, though, because if you have other in-camera adjustments which affect the JPEG rendering (e.g., D-Lighting, Picture Control adjustments, etc.) these will not be processed by LR.

If you want NX-style sharpening within LR 2 your best bet is to crank up the Detail (e.g., to 50 or higher), lower Radius (e.g., to 0.5 or 0.6), and increase Amount (e.g., to 40).
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zobeleye

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 11:45:14 pm »

hi eric,
thanks for your answer, but unfortunately this isn't what I meant.
the problem, I tried to describe is the difference the profiles have in contrast and overall appearance from the in camera generated jpgs.
I know about the adobe-profiles that should resemble the manufacturers looks and while they seem to be doing a good job on colourrendition,
they are almost impossible to tweak to look like the "jpg look".
that's where my question comes in.
is there a way to load a jpgfile into the DNG profile editor, measure the colours and transfer that data to a profile, which can then be used in LR to be applied to the rawfile ?
and thanks again for your work on the problem with printing to epson from PS !
cheers, stephan
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ErikKaffehr

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 01:54:54 am »

Have you checked if there are any Adobe Profiles for your cameras? Develop->Camera Calibration->Profile (I checked fo3 3DX and there are quite a few)

You could try TuneCurve, clarity, vibrance.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: zobelinski
hi eric,
thanks for your answer, but unfortunately this isn't what I meant.
the problem, I tried to describe is the difference the profiles have in contrast and overall appearance from the in camera generated jpgs.
I know about the adobe-profiles that should resemble the manufacturers looks and while they seem to be doing a good job on colourrendition,
they are almost impossible to tweak to look like the "jpg look".
that's where my question comes in.
is there a way to load a jpgfile into the DNG profile editor, measure the colours and transfer that data to a profile, which can then be used in LR to be applied to the rawfile ?
and thanks again for your work on the problem with printing to epson from PS !
cheers, stephan
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 01:57:10 am by ErikKaffehr »
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madmanchan

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 08:59:47 am »

What I meant to say (and apologies if it was unclear from my first post) is that the camera JPEGs usually have additional processing, such as D-Lighting, which are not captured by the "Camera"-prefix profiles in CR/LR. There may also be additional auto corrections, such as vignette correction. All of this depends on your in-camera settings, which are ignored by CR/LR aside from the as-shot white balance. This is why you are not being able to replicate the in-camera JPEG look in CR/LR just by selecting the profile. You would have to use the other rendering controls in CR/LR, such as Fill Light, Blacks, Parametric Curve, and Lens Vignette to get something closer. Just keep in mind that because Nikon and CR/LR have different processing pipelines, you may not be able to get the exact look of the camera JPEG.
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Eric Chan

Alan Goldhammer

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 12:31:22 pm »

Quote from: zobelinski
hello fellow computer warriors,
what has always unnerved me is that I can't get my NEFs from D3 and D700 to look like the incamera generated JPGs.
I juggle the controls in LR ( HSL, calibration,curves, sharpness, whatever ) and have not succeeded in getting the same look.
now I know that NX does a better job at that, but it's just too slow and tedious, compared to LR.
now the rendering of the colourchecker chart with the last profiles for nikons, that michael and jeff have shown in their tutorials seems pretty impressive, but I would like to be able to open the NEF, go to the same JPG and by measuring that , or analyzing that in the profile editor get them to look alike and then have a profile that I can use for that same light.
is that at all poosible?
or do I have to get the colourchecker and profile my cameras?
I also realized that there are many factors, not only colour rendering , but contrast settings and curveshapes as well, so profiling alone will probably not do.
thanks for your help
stephan
The new X-Rite Passport makes profiling your camera simple.  Just capture the image of the color chart, export from Lightroom and the profile will be made for you and brought back into Lightroom to use.  I was out two weeks ago and did one in the sun and one in the shade.  Helped adjust the color on all the images and the Lightroom synch tool allows you to apply the change to all the appropriate images.  It also helps on white ballance.  It's relatively inexpensive as well.
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zobeleye

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 03:53:04 pm »

hi guys,
thanks for all your answers so far.
thanks eric, for pointing out that NIKON and ACR use different pipelines and therefore it may not be possible. and I've worked on all the parameters and I'm aware of what the cam does to the jpg in terms of ADlighting and other parameters.
 
still, my initial question has NOT been answered.

"can I create a calibrationprofile from a jpg file, using the DNG Profile Editor ?"

is that at all possible?
 
I just want to recreate the look of my outofnikoncam jpgs in LR.

thanks again and cheers, stephan
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 03:57:55 pm by zobelinski »
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Schewe

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 04:33:37 pm »

Quote from: zobelinski
"can I create a calibrationprofile from a jpg file, using the DNG Profile Editor ?"

No...DNG Profile Editor only works on raw DNG files.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 04:34:37 pm by Schewe »
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ErikKaffehr

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 04:03:31 am »

Hi,

The idea with profiling is to "correctly" reproduce color. So profiling cannot help with manipulating color, except to establish a baseline color reproduction.

Another way to see it is: Would profiling work with Nikon JPEGs it would be most helpful to convert it to correct colors, that is a pretty truefull reproduction of a Color Checker Chart. It would be perfectly possible to create a tool generating a profile to convert from convert colors to Nikon colors, I guess, but the whole idea with color management is to make colors correct, not nice.

One possible route may be:

Take a picture of a CC chart using the Nikon settings you prefer, in JPEG and take another one with RAW.
Use DNG-editor to tweak the the individual fields of the CC chart so your image will be similar to the JPEG.

Another way to do it may be to find a version of the Fors script that allows you to specify the LAB values of the color checker. In that case you can use your preferred reproduction of the CC chart as a reference.

That said I'm very skeptical about your ambitions, you try to use color management for something it was never intended for.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: zobelinski
hi guys,
thanks for all your answers so far.
thanks eric, for pointing out that NIKON and ACR use different pipelines and therefore it may not be possible. and I've worked on all the parameters and I'm aware of what the cam does to the jpg in terms of ADlighting and other parameters.
 
still, my initial question has NOT been answered.

"can I create a calibrationprofile from a jpg file, using the DNG Profile Editor ?"

is that at all possible?
 
I just want to recreate the look of my outofnikoncam jpgs in LR.

thanks again and cheers, stephan
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Erik Kaffehr
 

zobeleye

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 05:04:34 am »

hi erik,
thanks for your answer.
just a quick response.
the way I see it ,in art and life, a lot of interesting and even important things have come from somebody using something the way it's NOT supposed to be used.
but I get your meaning.
cheers, stephan
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ErikKaffehr

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 05:37:35 am »

Hi,

I was not really intending to be negative. The problem is that color management can be quite complex mathematically speaking. If the equations are forced to do things they are not intended for they may cause problems which are hard to foresee. So there is a real risk that you get the colors you need but have a lot of side effects. Leaving the math to do it things and adjusting curves and tweaking colors is much less dangerous.

My guess is that you need to tweak both tonality and colors to achieve what you want. I'd guess that you can end up with some preset doing what you want to do. I would recommend that you check out some pages on the net:

http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html
http://www.outbackphoto.com/contest/index.html

My own experience is that an image that covers a full tonal range will be flat. So we need to add contrast, using an "S" curve, than we have some tricks like clarity (USM-mask with large radius but small quantity is an estimation).

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: zobelinski
hi erik,
thanks for your answer.
just a quick response.
the way I see it ,in art and life, a lot of interesting and even important things have come from somebody using something the way it's NOT supposed to be used.
but I get your meaning.
cheers, stephan
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Erik Kaffehr
 

zobeleye

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is it possible to create a profile from a jpeg file???
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 04:26:47 pm »

hey eric,
I wasn't offended.
answering somebodies question in a forum, you never know where they stand or where they're coming from.
I'm working with the techniques, you're proposing for quite a while now, especially with the unsharp mask highradiuslowvalue as a layer and painting it in to sculpt(or) the main outlines and then another pass with really fine detail sharpening.
but back to your answer, thanks for the links, I'll work my way through the dynamic range post...
I've decided to get the new CC with the software, and then meticulously calibrate and then tweak for the jpg look.
the reason for my question was to maybe get THE tip to do this or even a profile from somebody who did that before.
cause there's always something in the look of my jpgs that I like more than the raws that I've worked on and it has something to do with
colour rendering , but mainly it's about microcontrast. also they way LR doesn't show the NR and the sharpening in the preview look, but only at 100%.
but that's something that about to improve with LR 3.
cheers, stephan
and by the way , here's a pic that I did in sweden 3 years ago.[attachment=17698:sweden.jpg]
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