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Author Topic: high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit  (Read 20043 times)

jameshickey

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high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit
« on: September 17, 2009, 09:31:49 pm »

Regarding flash sync...I have the Broncolor Grafit system to get short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...Well, it was a disappointment because 3200J or even 1600J the fastest pulse durations are too slow to use as intended (bright light at fast sync to underexpose bright ambient light)  At 3200J the duration is 1/140 of a second, therefore I can't take advantage of the 1/800 sec flash sync of the hasselblad system.   To get those impressively short durations the power is below what I needed.  The ability to adjust pulse duration on the Grafit is misleading...to get a min. pulse duration of 1/800 sec the Grafit A4 3200J pack has to be reduced to 980J.  

My workaround is just the same as I did it in the past, use ND filters.  That not what I wanted because it makes the viewfinder so much darker.  I also use more the long throw reflectors to concentrate the light.  

How are the people out there making use of the high speed sync feature of the Hasselblad H systems and has anyone found a way to do it with wireless triggers?  I hate using the sync cords on location.  I see the RFS system does sync at high speed but there seems to be a bit of light loss compared to the sync cable.  I need to test it more thoroughly.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 04:17:22 pm by jameshickey »
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Bonobo

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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 10:11:12 pm »

Quote from: jameshickey
Regarding flash sync...I paid big bucks for the Broncolor Grafit system to get bright light with short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...Well, it was a huge disappointment because 3200J or even 1600J the fastest pulse durations are too slow to use as intended (bright light at fast sync to underexpose bright ambient light)  At 3200J the duration is 1/140 of a second, therefore I can't even come close to taking advantage of the 1/800 sec flash sync of the hasselblad system.   To get those impressively short durations the power is below what I needed.  The ability to adjust pulse duration on the Grafit is misleading...to get a min. pulse duration of 1/800 sec the Grafit A4 3200J pack has to be reduced to 980J.  

My workaround is just the same as I did it in the past, use ND filters.  That not what I wanted because it makes the viewfinder so much darker.  I also use more reflectors or Fresnels to concentrate the light.  

How are the people out there making use of the high speed sync feature of the Hasselblad H systems and has anyone found a way to do it with wireless triggers?  I hate using the sync cords on location.


What do you shoot? I presume your looking to freeze moving subjects?

I use Bowens/Profoto lighting and have never had any problems that your describing....
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TMARK

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 11:38:19 pm »

I have Profoto Pro7's and don't really have any issues with sync on my RZ at 1/400 max.

T
Quote from: Bonobo
What do you shoot? I presume your looking to freeze moving subjects?

I use Bowens/Profoto lighting and have never had any problems that your describing....
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paul_jones

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high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 12:20:16 am »

Quote from: jameshickey
Regarding flash sync...I paid big bucks for the Broncolor Grafit system to get bright light with short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...Well, it was a huge disappointment because 3200J or even 1600J the fastest pulse durations are too slow to use as intended (bright light at fast sync to underexpose bright ambient light)  At 3200J the duration is 1/140 of a second, therefore I can't even come close to taking advantage of the 1/800 sec flash sync of the hasselblad system.   To get those impressively short durations the power is below what I needed.  The ability to adjust pulse duration on the Grafit is misleading...to get a min. pulse duration of 1/800 sec the Grafit A4 3200J pack has to be reduced to 980J.  

My workaround is just the same as I did it in the past, use ND filters.  That not what I wanted because it makes the viewfinder so much darker.  I also use more reflectors or Fresnels to concentrate the light.  

How are the people out there making use of the high speed sync feature of the Hasselblad H systems and has anyone found a way to do it with wireless triggers?  I hate using the sync cords on location.



i think you will find the majority of the flash output is shorter than the very conservative T 1.0 rating. think of the bell curve of output, most of the power is on the center of the flash output, well within the 800th of a sec of the h1. if you loose any light, ive found that its hardly noticeable.  even the extremely slow duration of the profoto 7b battery packs only loose about 1/4 stop when used at full power shooting with pocketwizards at 800th sec with my h1. i think you should test in the feild, rather than just read the specs, as they often give different results.

i had profoto, and moved to broncolor grafits for fast flash duration. after testing a lot, the brons have a far higher flash duration than the profoto 7 packs. no flash gives you fast duration at full power, on the profotos it was pretty much at minimum. the bron grafit A4 gives 7500th (T1) which equates well over 10000th at t 0.5 (what profoto rates at), this power is at 4.1- the power goes up to 10, i think 4.1 is giving somewhere around 100w/s, but that doubles with two heads in one pack.

if you are wanting high power along with really fast duration, you will need multiple packs and/or efficient modifiers no matter what flash you buy. i often use two packs and a twin head when i need power and duration.

i havent used the scoro of pro-8 packs, i heard they have higher duration and higher power.

paul
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 12:24:58 am by paul_jones »
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Dustbak

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high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 02:45:32 am »

I use Nikon SB800's, SB80's, Elinchrom Ranger AS Speed all with skyport triggers. I can use 1/800th without any problems. Today I will receive my quadra set (if UPS delivers) and expect the same kind of performance.

The Elinchroms are stunningly fast even at full power (at least according their spec' but I have never felt the need to really check them for correctness).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 02:47:21 am by Dustbak »
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AlDoori

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 03:48:55 am »

Quote from: jameshickey
Regarding flash sync...I paid big bucks for the Broncolor Grafit system to get bright light with short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...
the stronger the flash the longer its duration.
anyway, it works with the H3D. and it works with the Hasselblad 500/Rolleiflex 6000/ Mamiya RZ since many years.
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JerryReed

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 04:17:21 am »

Michael Murphy, who is a frequent visitor to this site is an expert on Broncolor systems and has been a great advisor to me.  I fully expect that when the sun comes up in Michigan that he will have a helpful suggestion for you - have no fear.

Jerry
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christian_raae

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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 04:43:39 am »

I shoot with H3d-22 and Elinchrom Rangers, often at 1100W and 1/800, no problem with either sync or flash duration. But, the skyports are not good enough, they won't sync 100%, or even fire 100%. Pocket W is the way to go.


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Andre R

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high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 06:44:08 am »

Quote from: jameshickey
Regarding flash sync...I paid big bucks for the Broncolor Grafit system to get bright light with short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...Well, it was a huge disappointment because 3200J or even 1600J the fastest pulse durations are too slow to use as intended (bright light at fast sync to underexpose bright ambient light)  At 3200J the duration is 1/140 of a second, therefore I can't even come close to taking advantage of the 1/800 sec flash sync of the hasselblad system.   To get those impressively short durations the power is below what I needed.  The ability to adjust pulse duration on the Grafit is misleading...to get a min. pulse duration of 1/800 sec the Grafit A4 3200J pack has to be reduced to 980J.  

My workaround is just the same as I did it in the past, use ND filters.  That not what I wanted because it makes the viewfinder so much darker.  I also use more reflectors or Fresnels to concentrate the light.  

How are the people out there making use of the high speed sync feature of the Hasselblad H systems and has anyone found a way to do it with wireless triggers?  I hate using the sync cords on location.


I was wondering the same. I need to take some action pictures (sport related under 'controlled' environment) outdoor in bright sunlight, using H3D 1/800s at f11/16 and using flash. I have Profoto B2 but also 'fear' the flash duration on FULL is no where fast enough to really freeze the subject.

Is Profoto 7/8 and Bron Scoro the 'only' solution? (was hoping to find a solution costing less than $30k..)

AndreR

PS: Has anyone tried several Profoto B2 packs with maybe TWIN heads on HALF power to get a fast duration?
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AlDoori

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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 09:00:36 am »

Quote from: Andre R
I was wondering the same. I need to take some action pictures (sport related under 'controlled' environment) outdoor in bright sunlight, using H3D 1/800s at f11/16 and using flash. I have Profoto B2 but also 'fear' the flash duration on FULL is no where fast enough to really freeze the subject.
if you expose 1/800 the subject will be exposed at 1/800, regardless if the flash duration t= 0.1 is at, lets say, 1/200.
a twin head will reduce the flash duration by factor 2.
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mmurph

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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 09:36:55 am »

Good morning Jerry!  Thank you for the kind words, I will try to live up to them, although I would really like to immediately lower everyone’s expectations.  I have been up most of the night with insomnia, as usual.  I am also taking 5 kinds of pain meds, so right now I am struggling to remember how to spell my name … ;>)

Before I get started, I am going to make an assumption that James is not trying to stop motion, but rather to shoot at a wider aperture to get the depth of field and bokeh that he is looking for? He mentions using neutral density filters, which of course affects both the flash and ambient. No real help there in stopping motion.

Luckily I think paul_jones and others have supplied most of the answers already.

The older Pocket Wizard Max are supposed to sync up to 1/500 of a second with a leaf shutter. The limit is due to propagation delays with the radio signal.  As Paul mentions though, if you shoot at 1/800 and clip part of the t0.1 flash tail, you are not losing a lot of power.  In fact, the newer Pocket Wizard Mini’s use that as part of a strategy to sync at much faster speeds with a focal plane shutter (up to 1/8000 with Canon), but that will just make my head hurt more right now until we get the basics down ….

[blockquote]The MultiMAX is designed to sync cameras and flash units at
shutters speeds up to 1/250th for most focal plane shutters (35mm)
and 1/500th for most leaf shutters. Some camera and flash
combinations are capable of fast sync speeds up to 1/1000th. The
MultiMAX (set for RECEIVE mode) is capable of operation at these
speeds in Fast Mode.
[/blockquote]


If you look at the “Sunny 16” rule at ISO 100, your exposure for ambient light at 1/800 will be at f/16->f/11-f/8->f/5.6. If you want to overpower the ambient by, say, 1 stop, you need to be able to reach f/8 with the modifier and pack you are using. (ISO 50 will give you 1 stop lower of course, if you have it.)

It will be easier to reach that using a relatively efficient modifier, like a Para.  You could also use something like a PAR reflector or a Beauty Dish, or even something like a softbox if you are willing to work a little more closely.

From the Broncolor specs, a Para 220 at 3200 Ws and 10 meters (33 feet) will give you  32 8/10 when used in focused mode.

So to get to f/8, ambient + 1 stop, you need 32 8/10->32->22->16->11->8 = 3200->1600->800->400->200->100 Ws with something efficient like the Para.

That is at 10 meters! You can get the same settings with the Para 220 defocused at 4 meters. Or with the Beauty Dish or Pulsoflex 100x100 softbox at 2 meters.  If you apply the inverse square law, you will need 200 Ws at 3 meters, 400 Ws at 4.5 meters, etc.

On my older Broncolor Pulso A4 (precursor to the Grafit – I didn’t have a Grafit handy), I can set a t0.1 time of 1/500 at 1400 Ws (8.8), 1/1000 at almost 800 Ws (7.9), and 1/2000 at 400 Ws (6.9)  That should be plenty of power to overpower the sun at a reasonable distance.

By using a bi-tube head – attaching both sides of the flash tube to the same pack - I get 1/500 seconds t0.1 at 1600 Ws (9.0), 1/1000 at 1400 Ws (8.8), and 1/2000 at 800 Ws (7.9)  

Those are pretty respectable power levels, at decent flash durations.  Remember that Bron uses t0.1 times, where everyone else usually quotes t0.5 times. A 1/1000 second t0.1 time is roughly equivalent to a 1/3000 second t0.5 time!

Also, If you “clip” a t0.1 time with something like a 1/800 sync setting, you are losing much less power than “clipping” a t0.5 time. Per paul’s comment above, you are certainly losing less than 1/4 stop if the 1/800 exposure contains the peak of the flash and clips the trailing tail:  

This Bron brochure has a graph of the t0.1 and t0.5 flash pulses on page 8. I lost my pro version of Adobe Acrobat somehow through automated updates, can’t cut and paste the graphic.

http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_bs_grafitaplus_en.pdf


Smaller on camera  flash units can achieve much shorter flash durations, but their output is pretty limited for larger scenes, or for use in any kind of large modifier to get studio quality lighting.

Cheers!  My head hurts, need to sleep.

Best,
Michael
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TMARK

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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2009, 09:42:10 am »

Quote from: Andre R
I was wondering the same. I need to take some action pictures (sport related under 'controlled' environment) outdoor in bright sunlight, using H3D 1/800s at f11/16 and using flash. I have Profoto B2 but also 'fear' the flash duration on FULL is no where fast enough to really freeze the subject.

Is Profoto 7/8 and Bron Scoro the 'only' solution? (was hoping to find a solution costing less than $30k..)

AndreR

PS: Has anyone tried several Profoto B2 packs with maybe TWIN heads on HALF power to get a fast duration?

Twin head will half the flash duration, but your 1/800 should freeze the motion even if your flash duration is 1/100.  Your flash meter will measure the output at 1/800, so you won't get the entire flash output but, but you never really do anyway.  The other solution is to use a dslr at iso 1600.  You'll need way less light, even though you may need an ND filter for the ambient.

Forgot to add that for fast flash duration on a budget the Elinchrom Ranger A/S Speed looks promising, but only with the Speed heads.  The Pro8 and Scoros are incredible.  Have you looked ta the D1?  Do you know their specs on flash duration?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 09:45:36 am by TMARK »
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Andre R

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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2009, 10:52:55 am »

Quote from: TMARK
Twin head will half the flash duration, but your 1/800 should freeze the motion even if your flash duration is 1/100.  Your flash meter will measure the output at 1/800, so you won't get the entire flash output but, but you never really do anyway.

My thinking was to use 1/800s only to underexpose the ambient light and use the flash as my 'main' source of lighting ('overpowering the sun') of my subject AND freeze movement that would require lets say 1/2000s...

I do understand that some ambient light will 'hit' and affect my subject, but hopefully not enough to totally blur it...

I will probably use a Para220FB (as suggested by Michael) or Profoto 5-foot reflector as main modifier and standard reflectors on side/back lights.

AndreR

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TMARK

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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2009, 11:36:38 am »

You might want to use more packs.  For something like this, if you had a few Para FBs, each with a twin head, two packs each, you can power down the packs significantly.  So think about a HUGE rental package.  

Oh yeah, you need to be hard wired to the packs for reliable 1/800.  The newer wireless units might work, but I usually end up dropping a frame with PW Plus2 and PW MultiMax, which is OK with digital, but sucks with film.



Quote from: Andre R
My thinking was to use 1/800s only to underexpose the ambient light and use the flash as my 'main' source of lighting ('overpowering the sun') of my subject AND freeze movement that would require lets say 1/2000s...

I do understand that some ambient light will 'hit' and affect my subject, but hopefully not enough to totally blur it...

I will probably use a Para220FB (as suggested by Michael) or Profoto 5-foot reflector as main modifier and standard reflectors on side/back lights.

AndreR
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Andre R

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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 12:51:48 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
You might want to use more packs.  For something like this, if you had a few Para FBs, each with a twin head, two packs each, you can power down the packs significantly.  So think about a HUGE rental package.  

Oh yeah, you need to be hard wired to the packs for reliable 1/800.  The newer wireless units might work, but I usually end up dropping a frame with PW Plus2 and PW MultiMax, which is OK with digital, but sucks with film.

Thank you for your expert input!

Rental is not an option where I work from, so will have to add on the missing bits in my kit. The setup i will try to start with (as a test) will be 4x Profoto B2 with 2x twin heads, one for a Para220 the other for a 5-footer. Then before adding another 2-3 B2 packs maybe try with my Acute600B's (at half power) with standard heads/reflectors for backlights/rimlight. Its a fairly big assignment lasting years so could be worth the effort...

And now maybe a couple of stupid question...IF a shutter speed of 1/2000s could freeze my subject (assuming its lit by ambient light) would the same subject ONLY lit by flash with a flash duration of 1/2000s have more or less the same effect?

...and can the way the central shutter work have 'less' stopping/freezing 'power' than a focal shutter at the same speed? (does the shutter blades operate in a circular movement or 'cutting' movement on HC lenses...)
(...sorry, english is not my first language)

AndreR



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ynp

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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 12:52:30 pm »

In my experience Bron RFS  radio Transmitters are reliable at 1/800 with my Grafit A4 RFS.
Yevgeny

Quote from: TMARK
Oh yeah, you need to be hard wired to the packs for reliable 1/800.  The newer wireless units might work, but I usually end up dropping a frame with PW Plus2 and PW MultiMax, which is OK with digital, but sucks with film.
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TMARK

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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2009, 01:54:01 pm »

If the subject is lit only by a strobe's 1/2000 output, its like a 1/2000 shutter.  

As far as I know the only practical difference in shutter types comes from sync speed.

Are you working with a flash meter?  

T

Quote from: Andre R
Thank you for your expert input!

Rental is not an option where I work from, so will have to add on the missing bits in my kit. The setup i will try to start with (as a test) will be 4x Profoto B2 with 2x twin heads, one for a Para220 the other for a 5-footer. Then before adding another 2-3 B2 packs maybe try with my Acute600B's (at half power) with standard heads/reflectors for backlights/rimlight. Its a fairly big assignment lasting years so could be worth the effort...

And now maybe a couple of stupid question...IF a shutter speed of 1/2000s could freeze my subject (assuming its lit by ambient light) would the same subject ONLY lit by flash with a flash duration of 1/2000s have more or less the same effect?

...and can the way the central shutter work have 'less' stopping/freezing 'power' than a focal shutter at the same speed? (does the shutter blades operate in a circular movement or 'cutting' movement on HC lenses...)
(...sorry, english is not my first language)

AndreR
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AlDoori

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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2009, 02:37:45 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Are you working with a flash meter?
FCC as an addition? to measure flash duration (t 0.1)
Quote
Broncolor Flash-Colour-Chronoscope (FCC) is a multi-functional meter for measuring many parameters of flash and ambient light. It works with any make of lighting equipment (flash or continuous) but is especially suited to Broncolor flash units where the colour temperature can be adjusted in the power pack.The built-in IRS triggers the flash and the +/- buttons on the FCC unit adjust the colour temperature in the power pack.

The FCC meter measures the following:
1. Flash duration (t 0.1) from 1/15s - 1/8000s. Via IRS, cord or non-cord.
2. Flash light colour temperature. Via IRS, cord or non-cord.
3. Continuous light colour temperature measurement 1,800K-40,000K.
4. Lux Measurement 50- 100,000 Lux.
5. Remote control colour temperature for Pulso A power packs.
6. Choice of 2 IRS channels.
7. Choice of 2 speeds to measure flash colour temperature,1/30s and 1/250s.
8. Set your film type to 3,200K; 3,400K or 5,500K.
9. For a chosen film the meter will suggest an LB (colour temperature correction) and a CC (colour compensating) from 50 green to 50 magenta, so you know exactly what filters to use.
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TMARK

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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2009, 03:01:27 pm »

Quote from: AlDoori
FCC as an addition? to measure flash duration (t 0.1)

Now that FCC is super fancy.  I have three meaters from Minolta and Sekonic that give me, well almost, the functionality of the FCC!  I might have to get one.

I was asking about working with a meter because you can see what your light is doing at different F stops and shutter speeds, iso settings, etc.  In this way you can see if its even possible to use the setup you have.  I think you would be able to see how much light you get at 1/2000 at F8.  I know you can't sync to 1/2000, but you sure can capture part of the strobes out put (the tail on the graph) by triggering late.  I think the new PW does this, or I'd buy a few more Grafit's, or a Pr08/Scoro.  The Scoro is cheaper than the Pro8, I believe.

As a side note I've always favored Bron but have never owned them.  I've always had Profoto Acutes, Pro6 and now Pro7's for the simple reason that they work, always, no hastle, for years and years without failure, with a yearly check up.


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AlDoori

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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2009, 03:21:38 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Now that FCC is super fancy.
it is indeed, especially for 1980s tec, made in switzerland...
 
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