My Leaf Disaster

[G_Allen]

I feel very fortunate that my H2/P30+ system is flawless.

[Christopher]

Well it is quite interesting. At the same time you bought your system, I was thinking about buying one as well. I really liked the AFi and the new leaf backs. After some testing with quite a few different solutions. I went with Phase and can only say I'm extremely happy. The service is fantastic. It is nice to have a real Phase dealer near Munich and not to deal with a larger store which carries all types of cameras.

It is sad what happened to Leaf, but I can understand you, I nearly bought a similar system from them. Perhaps I just was a little luckier ;-)

[PHOTO ZARA]

thanks for sharing sorry to hear that  

[Dustbak]

I am so glad that Calumet never answered me back when I asked for the account number where to make the transfer for the Leaf back. I went with Hasselblad and never regretted it, even though that system can have its moments as well.

The only current thing is that I no longer have a dealer. Mine went bankrupt   The only other option seems to be Calumet which I categorically refuse.

[tho_mas]

I went with Phase and can only say I'm extremely happy. The service is fantastic.

don't think that all Phase products are flawless.
But, yes, I agree: in my experience the service is very well. If there is something... there will be exchange or any solution and they are always very helpful.

[Juanito]

it was just my stupid Ego shouting I would need the most expensive toy on the block. the whole bullshit of how MF slows you down so you could become a better photographer.

More sage words were never spoken.

Sounds like you did everything right. Of course, that doesn't make the experience any easier.

John

[RobertJ]

Sounds terrible, but did you ever use the back on your view camera?  All this talk about autofocus, I wasn't sure if you indicated that you tried it with the view camera or not.  If the AFi was giving you problems, surely you can shoot with the view camera, even though you've already thrown money away on the AFi.

Also... I guess your dealer didn't know that the Leaf AFi-mount back can be used on an RZ67 with a Leaf adapter.  So you could've bought a used RZ for $400 and been shooting away with no problems at all, except that you paid for an expensive Leaf AFi body that doesn't work correctly...

[pixjohn]

I would go back to the dealer and Leaf (Phaseone ) and take no other answer but a full refund.  I personally think its worth a small claims case to recover what they promised. Did you deliver the return to the dealer? If so, it would seem like they are on the hook for the refund.

Since Phaseone bought Leaf has anyone even bought a Leaf back?

I also went through hell when I purchased my Aptus 75. I did a full test with a back sent to me by Leaf. Everything worked great, when I got my back I found out the test was shot with a back that had a prototype chip and everything went down hill from there.

[Christopher]

don't think that all Phase products are flawless.
But, yes, I agree: in my experience the service is very well. If there is something... there will be exchange or any solution and they are always very helpful.

I'm not claiming everything is perfect, I had my problems with a lens and a back, but the service just was great. Brand new replacements and fast service, that is how I expect it when spending that much money.

[geesbert]

I can't go back to my dealer to ask for my money: As I leased the camera kit through a finance company I never owned it, I just leased it from them. with the first problem arising I should have told them their camera wasn't working and they should sort it out, or at least tell them I would sort it out.

what I did was talking with the dealer, but leagelly I wasn't in the position to do so.  The owner of the camera would have be the only one who could reverse the contract, but they wouldn't know and didn't care less when I told them. I kind of had to thank them to let me out of the contract before the 36months ware up.

I returned the camera to the dealer, the dealer returned the full anmount to the finance company, only I was shit out of luck, ABCFinance pocketed everything I paid them up to then and terminated the lease.

Again, I am a stupid idiot for being so naive and believing when people were promising things. but then: if someone promises you you will get everything back down to the last penny, why shouldn't you belive them?

 no one really to blame but me... maybe only leaf for promising me to get my money back, which never happend

[Gigi]

What a mess. Seems like three different problems:

- financial arrangements: getting out was through the lease company, and not satisfactory. That's a customer issue, not Leaf or the Hy6

- focus issue - probably either a camera or camera/back problem. Should be fixable, but boy, you had a heck of problem. Not acceptable at that level of camera or back.

- system limitations for hand held shooting - this is not the problem of the maufacturer, but more a user interface with MFDB. Seems to be a built in limitation, rarely discussed, but a limiting factor. I've seen some amazing hand held shots with the Hy6 (Nicolas Claris shooting a sailing boat from a helicopter in daylight), but I've also experienced these limitations of low light myself, although I'm about 3 centuries behind you in gear.

But each of these problems has its own causes, and separate solutions. Its too bad they all converged on you. Good will from either dealer, Leaf or F/H (both gone now) wouldn't be enough to fix all three.

Geoff

[rainer_v]

I can't go back to my dealer to ask for my money. As I leased the cameras kit through a finance company I never owned it, I just leased it from them. with the first problem arising I should have told them their camera wasn't working and they should sort it out.

what I did was talking with the dealer and so the owner of the camera woulöd have be the only one who could reverse the contract, but they wouldn't know and didn't care less when I told them. I kind of had to thank them to let me out of the contract before the 36months ware up.

I returned the camera to the dealer, the dealer returned the full anmount to the finance company, only I was shit out of luck, they pocketed everything I paid them up to then and terminated the lease.

Again I am a stupid idiot for being so naive and believing when people were promising things. no one really to blame but me....and maybe leaf for promising me to get my money back, which never happend

[asf]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused

You think Leaf should have paid you back instead of the leasing company?

[shutay]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused

You think Leaf should have paid you back instead of the leasing company?

If I am not mistaken, I don't believe he is saying this.

"I returned the camera to the dealer, the dealer returned the full amount to the finance company, only I was shit out of luck, ABCFinance pocketed everything I paid them up to then and terminated the lease."

If I understand this correctly, he is saying that given these facts:

• The camera was returned to the dealer.
• The dealer returned the full amount for the camera to the finance company.
• He had paid a certain number of installments against the lease for the camera, but apparently not the full amount yet, otherwise he would have owned the camera himself, which he did not since it was still under lease at the time.

So he is saying that if the camera is back with the dealer, and the full amount is back with the finance company, why can they (the finance company) not return if not 100% then perhaps a large percentage of what he had paid into the lease up till that point. Instead, the finance company did not lose any money from the camera, and they even gained profit (from his already paid installments) for a transaction that got cancelled.

I.e., unfair that the finance company got their money back yet still they kept the lease installments paid already.

[asf]

Ok, that makes sense

The leasing company I'm dealing with are a bunch of weasels. Another extremely long story ...

I had a problem with a new MF camera that didn't focus, couldn't get 5 bodies in a row to focus properly.
My dealer couldn't get it to work either and took it back without question. I still can't believe people buy this camera.

[geesbert]

If I am not mistaken, I don't believe he is saying this.

"I returned the camera to the dealer, the dealer returned the full amount to the finance company, only I was shit out of luck, ABCFinance pocketed everything I paid them up to then and terminated the lease."

If I understand this correctly, he is saying that given these facts:

• The camera was returned to the dealer.
• The dealer returned the full amount for the camera to the finance company.
• He had paid a certain number of installments against the lease for the camera, but apparently not the full amount yet, otherwise he would have owned the camera himself, which he did not since it was still under lease at the time.

So he is saying that if the camera is back with the dealer, and the full amount is back with the finance company, why can they (the finance company) not return if not 100% then perhaps a large percentage of what he had paid into the lease up till that point. Instead, the finance company did not lose any money from the camera, and they even gained profit (from his already paid installments) for a transaction that got cancelled.

I.e., unfair that the finance company got their money back yet still they kept the lease installments paid already.

this is eyactly what happend, thanks for translation my babbeling...only that both leaf and the dealer had promised I would get back my paid leasing rates, which didn't happen...

[feppe]

This is a painful story to read. I have a 5DII being delivered for the the past six months myself, so I know how frustrated you must be.

this is eyactly what happend, thanks for translation my babbeling...only that both leaf and the dealer had promised I would get back my paid leasing rates, which didn't happen...

You were wasting your time talking to your dealer or Leaf about money. The camera belongs to the leasing company. It's unclear whether you got out of the contract already. In case you didn't, here goes:

As a finance monkey myself* having dealt with these kinds of cases, you have to talk to them on the terms they understand. Money. Tally up how much you have paid them already. Add up how much they received from the refund, if they received one. The difference between the two is how much he made without lifting a finger (minus overhead and some misc costs).

Say to him "You've made X euro off me in Y months, most of it pure margin. [then the bit which matters:] The next time I purchase a big ticket camera system why would I use your leasing company if you don't reason with me now, and let me out of the contract. Win-win." Reason with him on his terms: revenue and margin.

If reasoning doesn't help, mention small claims court or whatever you have in Germany for these cases, but don't threaten - just say that that is an option you might need to take to protect your business. A finance monkey knows that the margins he's made from you will quickly disappear down the maws of trained attack lawyers, no matter what the outcome of the court case, and wastes his time he would be better off making new contracts.

Alternatively, go back to your leasing contract. Read it over carefully. There are rules on how you can get out of the contract - they are probably quite unfavorable to you, but there are certainly contractual ways. If there isn't an acceptable method, contact the German trade association for such companies for advice.

* this is not professional advice, usual disclaimers, IANAL etc. don't sue me please

[Juanito]

I'm guessing that you need a lawyer to sort this out. The leasing company doesn't owe you all the money you paid them since they are entitled to keep the interest on the money that they paid out. The fact that the product was faulty isn't their responsibility. As far as Leaf working to get your money back from the leasing company, that's a joke. They have no clout nor ability to make that happen. Their offer to help you was probably just lip service to get you off their back.

Leaf owes you the money that you paid out to leasing company as damages arising from their faulty product. Of course, their purchase agreement may have language that excludes an incidental damages such as the amounts you paid for the lease.

Basically, you're out of luck. If you want any hope of getting your money back, you'll need a lawyer. For the amount of money involved, it may be worth it.

John

[Frank Doorhof]

I'm guessing that you need a lawyer to sort this out. The leasing company doesn't owe you all the money you paid them since they are entitled to keep the interest on the money that they paid out. The fact that the product was faulty isn't their responsibility. As far as Leaf working to get your money back from the leasing company, that's a joke. They have no clout nor ability to make that happen. Their offer to help you was probably just lip service to get you off their back.

Leaf owes you the money that you paid out to leasing company as damages arising from their faulty product. Of course, their purchase agreement may have language that excludes an incidental damages such as the amounts you paid for the lease.

Basically, you're out of luck. If you want any hope of getting your money back, you'll need a lawyer. For the amount of money involved, it may be worth it.

John

John,
The way I know Leaf is not that they try to get people of their back, I find them more than helpful in their service.
The problem here is that the camera was leased.
I don't know how it works in other countries but over here leasing is like renting, in other words if you use the camera for a few months/week you are paying money for that.
If the camera does not work as is the case here the LEASING company should have been more flexible, 100% true.
But I really don't see how you can blame leaf for this or even the dealer.

If the dealer has contacts with the leasing company and does more with them it would be a good idea to get them to contact the lease company and work it out.

I think the lease company will be of the opinion that they had their costs in the form of insurance, interest, bookkeeping etc.
Again I don't know for 100% how it works over there but I know there are leasing companies that will let you pay a fine if you stop the lease before the end of the contract.

We never lease so I don't have all the information but I find the attack to Leaf uncalled for, they made sure the dealer got his money back, as I see from the story that's all they can do.

[Dustbak]

I disagree with Frank, the problem was never that the camera was leased. The problem was that Leaf did not hold up to their end of the deal, the camera was simply not functioning. Had they done their part to begin with none of this misery would have occurred.

It has been said before. It should not be asking for too much to have equipment that pretends to be top-notch functioning according to its price level. I have already seen way too many disasters to dismiss these as unfortunate single incidents.

You should indeed use a lawyer to sort this out and even than your chances are slim. I agree your experience is total disaster. You just better move on and concentrate on making images and money.