Noise reduction and sharpening

[marcmccalmont]

I have found my 5D2 files a bit noisy in the shadows so I have been using the following technique for noise reduction/sharpening.
It is easy to think your doing things right working in your own vacuum so if you have time I'd like comments from those of you that would give this technique a try
1)  In PS I select colorange/shadows then apply noise reduction (noiseware pro)
2)  I inverse the selection and apply sharpening (focus fixer 2)
The logic is the noise is in the shadows and the shadows contain less detail so apply noise reduction there. The mid tones contain the details so apply the sharpening to the inverted selection. Comments?
Marc
[attachment=16147:IMG_4403_DxO_raw.jpg]
Lake Sunapee New Hampshire (about 5:30 AM)

[thierrylegros396]

Had the same idea, but you have a better method to implement it in a simple way !

I've not more than Photoshop CS1, so is it possible to make the same Colorrange selection ?!

Thierry

[marcmccalmont]

Had the same idea, but you have a better method to implement it in a simple way !

I've not more than Photoshop CS1, so is it possible to make the same Colorrange selection ?!

Thierry

I don't know look under select/ color range/ shadows? I'm using  CS4
Marc

[Mark D Segal]

I have found my 5D2 files a bit noisy in the shadows so I have been using the following technique for noise reduction/sharpening.
It is easy to think your doing things right working in your own vacuum so if you have time I'd like comments from those of you that would give this technique a try
1)  In PS I select colorange/shadows then apply noise reduction (noiseware pro)
2)  I inverse the selection and apply sharpening (focus fixer 2)
The logic is the noise is in the shadows and the shadows contain less detail so apply noise reduction there. The mid tones contain the details so apply the sharpening to the inverted selection. Comments?
Marc
[attachment=16147:IMG_4403_DxO_raw.jpg]
Lake Sunapee New Hampshire (about 5:30 AM)

That is, if you work in  vaccuum. I try not to..........  

More generally, I do my noise reduction on a duplicate image layer and mask-out where I don't want it to apply, or use differing brush opacities on different parts of the image to really customize the extent of noise reduction.

[Panopeeper]

1)  In PS I select colorange/shadows then apply noise reduction (noiseware pro)
2)  I inverse the selection and apply sharpening (focus fixer 2)

I do not have any experience with noise reduction, except undusting the sky. However, I think there is an inherent problem with your approach: this type of selection (color range, shadows, etc.) selects isolated, single pixels as well. I would want to perform noise reduction and sharpening on solid areas. The very least I would do is making coarse selection of the affected regions and then the shadow selection on those areas.

In the example you posted I would select the hills and perhaps part of the water surface at the right hand side (I don't see the noise on this small image), the latter with large feathering. For the accurate selection I make a coarse selection with lasso, create a new layer and make selection on that with lasso + magic wand.

[Schewe]

The logic is the noise is in the shadows and the shadows contain less detail so apply noise reduction there. The mid tones contain the details so apply the sharpening to the inverted selection. Comments?

While it is true that deep shadows have more perceptible noise (not more noise, just more visible noise) what you are doing regarding the noise reduction is ok. But inverting the Color Range selection to apply sharpening would be suboptimal. And, there is noise in midtones that you would not be getting the way you were going about it.

I would suggest making an edge mask to apply the image sharpening through, then invert that and soften and lighten to apply the noise reduction through. Both on separate ayers so you could apply blending options in order to target noise reduction on the surface shadows and the sharpening set to taper off highlights and sharpening.

[bill t.]

Do you present your images as prints?  In many cases noise that is visible on the screen is not apparent in prints.  But it is often true that artifacts and smoothing generated by noise reduction attempts can be more noticeable in a print than on the screen.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi!

I'm with Jeff on this.

Sometime I do noise reduction on a separate layer, apply to non edge areas and do some painting on masks. But I'm a landscape shooter, ISO 100 and a good tripod makes for no problems!

Photokit sharpener is nifty! But I'm a Lightroom user, could Adobe please add real noise reduction to Lightroom and also some correction for lens distortion and keystoning?

Erik

While it is true that deep shadows have more perceptible noise (not more noise, just more visible noise) what you are doing regarding the noise reduction is ok. But inverting the Color Range selection to apply sharpening would be suboptimal. And, there is noise in midtones that you would not be getting the way you were going about it.

I would suggest making an edge mask to apply the image sharpening through, then invert that and soften and lighten to apply the noise reduction through. Both on separate ayers so you could apply blending options in order to target noise reduction on the surface shadows and the sharpening set to taper off highlights and sharpening.

[Schewe]

....could Adobe please add real noise reduction to Lightroom and also some correction for lens distortion and keystoning?

How long can you hold your breath?

:~)

[ErikKaffehr]

:

How long can you hold your breath?

:~)

[bjanes]

I have found my 5D2 files a bit noisy in the shadows

Marc, I've seen your posts previously and know that you are no beginner, but if noise is a problem with the 5D2 you must be a perfectionist or you are not using base ISO and exposing to the right.

so I have been using the following technique for noise reduction/sharpening.
It is easy to think your doing things right working in your own vacuum so if you have time I'd like comments from those of you that would give this technique a try

1)  In PS I select colorange/shadows then apply noise reduction (noiseware pro)
2)  I inverse the selection and apply sharpening (focus fixer 2)
The logic is the noise is in the shadows and the shadows contain less detail so apply noise reduction there. The mid tones contain the details so apply the sharpening to the inverted selection. Comments?

Your basic approach of using masks and inverse masks for NR and sharpening is sound, but you might refine the process as suggested by Jeff Schewe in a previous post in this thread. Bruce Fraser's sharpening book explains the use of masks and blending options for sharpening as suggested by Jeff in great detail and briefly discusses the use of inverse masks for NR. However, I wouldn't buy the book now, as I understand that Jeff is updating it.

Your use of Focus Fixer rather than the more often used unsharp mask is interesting. From a brief look at their web site, Focus Fixer appears to be a deconvolution algorithm similar to Focus Magic and Smart Sharpen in Photoshop. These deconvolution algortithms thoretically have the possibility to actually remove blur rather than merely increasing apparent sharpness as with unsharp masking. However, for deconvolution to work properly requires that you have a point spread function (PSP) that describes how the blurring in the image was created. A good PSP is difficult to derive and is usually created empirically by tweaking the parameters of the algorithm. I see that Focus Fixer reads the EXIF to get some information regarding the creation of the PSF.

I have been interested in deconvolution for some time, but have not used it because of the complexities of obtaining a good PSP. Jeff Schewe has posted similar reservations. I would be interested in how you and other forum members have used deconvoluiton and if it is worth the effort.

[Mark D Segal]

Bill,

Firstly, Jeff's Sharpening 2 book is now available for pre-order on Amazon.com, Amazon,ca etc. The ETA is somewhere around mid-September, so the way time flies these days, around the corner.

I've played with Focus Magic - not extensively - and I didn't like the results I was getting. Everything looked "forced sharp" and I couldn't easily get it to produce a natural-looking result; but that may be because I didn't put enough time into perfecting its usage. In its favour, it was able to construct detail which eluded other sharpening methods; hence I can see its real usefulness, for example, in forensic work; but it remains an open question in my mind whether such a deconvolution approach would be a choice general sharpening algorithm for regular photography. I've resigned myself to the working hypothesis that blurred pictures are blurred pictures and destined to remain so.

[Schewe]

Firstly, Jeff's Sharpening 2 book is now available for pre-order on Amazon.com, Amazon,ca etc. The ETA is somewhere around mid-September, so the way time flies these days, around the corner.

I just got my author's copies of the RWIS book which arrived today...so the finished books will be going out to distribution sometime next week. Keep in mind that Amazon has had it's problems getting initial shipments in and out on a region by region basis. Don't know if the overseas distribution (even to Canada) will be swift. But mid-Sept should be reasonable...

[Mark D Segal]

I just got my author's copies of the RWIS book arrived today...so the finished books will be going out to distribution sometime next week. Keep in mind that Amazon has had it's problems getting initial shipments in and out on a region by region basis. Don't know if the overseas distribution (even to Canada) will be swift. But mid-Sept should be reasonable...

I guess Lake Ontario can be considered "overseas"    . OK, joking aside, you're right - there have been problems with Amazon as you say, but it's so damn easy with 1-click ordering and their prices are good. Let's hope they get the delivery on point this time. Looking forward to the book Jeff.

A PS to Canadian customers buying from Amazon: they've started imposing an Import surcharge, partilly refundable depending on their clearing costs, for shipments from Amazon.com USA to Canadian purchasers. When you add the higher shipping costs, plus the import surcharge plus the exchange rate, I've been finding that their delivered pricing from their Canadian portal is often cheaper in Canadian dollars.

[marcmccalmont]

Marc, I've seen your posts previously and know that you are no beginner, but if noise is a problem with the 5D2 you must be a perfectionist or you are not using base ISO and exposing to the right.

Spoiled by my P30 files thats all, ISO 100 and ETTR. The shadows of the P30 are so clean it just makes me want the same for the 5D2
Marc

[marcmccalmont]

While it is true that deep shadows have more perceptible noise (not more noise, just more visible noise) what you are doing regarding the noise reduction is ok. But inverting the Color Range selection to apply sharpening would be suboptimal. And, there is noise in midtones that you would not be getting the way you were going about it.

I would suggest making an edge mask to apply the image sharpening through, then invert that and soften and lighten to apply the noise reduction through. Both on separate ayers so you could apply blending options in order to target noise reduction on the surface shadows and the sharpening set to taper off highlights and sharpening.

I will give that a try.
Thanks
Marc

[marcmccalmont]

I have been interested in deconvolution for some time, but have not used it because of the complexities of obtaining a good PSP. Jeff Schewe has posted similar reservations. I would be interested in how you and other forum members have used deconvoluiton and if it is worth the effort.

Instead of pixel peeping at 100% to judge sharpening I look at water and metal objects the deconvolution algorithms make both look more realistic sometimes astonishling so, but that is a very subjective opinion, worth the experiment
Marc

[Mark D Segal]

I guess Lake Ontario can be considered "overseas"    . OK, joking aside, you're right - there have been problems with Amazon as you say, but it's so damn easy with 1-click ordering and their prices are good. Let's hope they get the delivery on point this time. Looking forward to the book Jeff.

A PS to Canadian customers buying from Amazon: they've started imposing an Import surcharge, partilly refundable depending on their clearing costs, for shipments from Amazon.com USA to Canadian purchasers. When you add the higher shipping costs, plus the import surcharge plus the exchange rate, I've been finding that their delivered pricing from their Canadian portal is often cheaper in Canadian dollars.

Sequel: I received a notice from Amazon.ca today that my copy has shipped.

[NicholasDown]

I just got my author's copies of the RWIS book which arrived today...so the finished books will be going out to distribution sometime next week. Keep in mind that Amazon has had it's problems getting initial shipments in and out on a region by region basis. Don't know if the overseas distribution (even to Canada) will be swift. But mid-Sept should be reasonable...

Just been told by Amazon UK that RWIS is now shipping sooner than expected! Mine due tomorrow.
Nicholas

[Bearmann]

I have some questions about Real World Image Sharpening, Second Edition.

On page 266, in regard to output sharpening for inkjet printers, some suggested settings are proposed for glossy or semigloss paper. There is no mention of matte paper. Would you use these same settings, but increase the amount (or perhaps the radius) for matte paper?

Immediately after the sharpening step, an Edit>Fade at 70% luminosity is done. Why is the luminosity fade not set at 100%? Doesn't this direct some (30%) sharpening toward the color component of the image?