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Author Topic: H3D vs the iPhone  (Read 7481 times)

JanKaarSchwieterman

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H3D vs the iPhone
« on: August 05, 2009, 10:19:20 pm »

Hello!

First post here and was wondering about a lighting problem and how to properly shoot and iPhone.  Check it out on the apple website if your not familiar shooting something like the phone.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/

So far I've got the lighting for the phone down EXCEPT when it comes to exposing for the image ON the phone.  Please check out any of the iPhone image's on Apple's site to see what I'm taking about.  It's the image that I'm trying to expose for.  If I reflect light on the phone obviously I end up with major reflection...  The shot in-question may be a composite of two images.  One being the image and the other being the shot of the iPhone with the screen dark/blank.  If in fact it is two image's composited how did they get the image on the screen then?  How do you expose/light for something like that...?!  I've only been using two heads to light and various bounce cards etc...  Maybe they used a light cube/tent...?

I maybe I'm jumping the gun here so Ill let the more experienced of the group speak up...  


Thank you,
Jan Kaar

www.jan-kaar.com
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kcc008

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 10:30:57 pm »

I would guess that those are digital renderings of the phone, not actual photographs.

Quote from: JanKaarSchwieterman
Hello!

First post here and was wondering about a lighting problem and how to properly shoot and iPhone.  Check it out on the apple website if your not familiar shooting something like the phone.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/

So far I've got the lighting for the phone down EXCEPT when it comes to exposing for the image ON the phone.  Please check out any of the iPhone image's on Apple's site to see what I'm taking about.  It's the image that I'm trying to expose for.  If I reflect light on the phone obviously I end up with major reflection...  The shot in-question may be a composite of two images.  One being the image and the other being the shot of the iPhone with the screen dark/blank.  If in fact it is two image's composited how did they get the image on the screen then?  How do you expose/light for something like that...?!  I've only been using two heads to light and various bounce cards etc...  Maybe they used a light cube/tent...?

I maybe I'm jumping the gun here so Ill let the more experienced of the group speak up...  


Thank you,
Jan Kaar

www.jan-kaar.com
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Tgrain

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 02:55:29 am »

yep, most of Apple's images are rendered, not photographed.
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MarkL

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 06:59:04 am »

Shoot one lit for for the phone and one for the screen then photoshop the screen onto the phone picture. This is pretty common practice and easier than messing around with gobos etc.
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JanKaarSchwieterman

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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 01:08:00 am »

I can't believe they were rendered...  Looks great and makes me want to give up shooting product with a camera...  How can you compete with that?    Im sure one day all photo's will be replaced by something along the lines of CAD or some other rendering software in the near future.

Thanks for the reply's.
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BernardLanguillier

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 01:50:14 am »

Quote from: JanKaarSchwieterman
I can't believe they were rendered...  Looks great and makes me want to give up shooting product with a camera...  How can you compete with that?    Im sure one day all photo's will be replaced by something along the lines of CAD or some other rendering software in the near future.

I happen to know a bit about this domain, my personnal assessement is that 90% of the equipment images from large corporations will be done with rendering 3 years from now. It is already the case for most consumer electronics for the very simple reason that products start to get markeded before a physical sample even exists...

Qualitywise we are were we need to be, and most equipment is nowadays designed with 3D cad, the best of them featuring integrated high end rendering solutions avoiding the need of data conversion and costly surfaces healing.

As cloud computing becomes pervasive along with the increase of performance of CPU, memory and swap, the need to invest locally into hard to maintain rendering facilities will also be reduced and more and more companies will be able to use these technologies to produce quickly very high resolution rendered images.

The role of photographs will focus on capturing high resolution environment images, but the amount needed will be a lot less than that of actual products and these will be delivered by specialized stock companies. Images featuring humans will take a few more years, but I am fully confident that perfect renderings of human figures will be common place in 5 years from now.

High end lifestyle items like cars that rely heavily on location settings migth take a bit more time.

Product photography is not a domain where I would start to work in nowadays.

Cheers,
Bernard

Christopher

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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 04:33:31 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I happen to know a bit about this domain, my personnal assessement is that 90% of the equipment images from large corporations will be done with rendering 3 years from now. It is already the case for most consumer electronics for the very simple reason that products start to get markeded before a physical sample even exists...

Qualitywise we are were we need to be, and most equipment is nowadays designed with 3D cad, the best of them featuring integrated high end rendering solutions avoiding the need of data conversion and costly surfaces healing.

As cloud computing becomes pervasive along with the increase of performance of CPU, memory and swap, the need to invest locally into hard to maintain rendering facilities will also be reduced and more and more companies will be able to use these technologies to produce quickly very high resolution rendered images.

The role of photographs will focus on capturing high resolution environment images, but the amount needed will be a lot less than that of actual products and these will be delivered by specialized stock companies. Images featuring humans will take a few more years, but I am fully confident that perfect renderings of human figures will be common place in 5 years from now.

High end lifestyle items like cars that rely heavily on location settings migth take a bit more time.

Product photography is not a domain where I would start to work in nowadays.

Cheers,
Bernard

Very well said, but you could spin that even further. In 10 years CGI renderning will come into commercielas and in 20 years everything we will ever see will be CGI. Why ? Because it is cheaper and you by that time will be able to create anything you want to. Why should by that time anyone spend 10k or 40k on a camera system which is not needed anymore. (Well I know a very dark painted future, but I'm sure it will happen. I just hope it will take a lot longer than 20 ;-) )
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Christopher Hauser
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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 07:55:52 am »

Quote from: JanKaarSchwieterman
So far I've got the lighting for the phone down EXCEPT when it comes to exposing for the image ON the phone.

The images on the phone display are usually put in in post; I used to shoot displays seperatly, but nowadays they are just added later.

As for 3d rendering, those Apple images don't look like 3D renders to me, but who knows for sure...

I actually think it's cheaper and faster to shoot and retouch than to do it in 3D (doing that stuff a little myself) , if a client is looking for quality - which Apple does.
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JanKaarSchwieterman

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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 12:25:40 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I happen to know a bit about this domain, my personnal assessement is that 90% of the equipment images from large corporations will be done with rendering 3 years from now. It is already the case for most consumer electronics for the very simple reason that products start to get markeded before a physical sample even exists...

Qualitywise we are were we need to be, and most equipment is nowadays designed with 3D cad, the best of them featuring integrated high end rendering solutions avoiding the need of data conversion and costly surfaces healing.

As cloud computing becomes pervasive along with the increase of performance of CPU, memory and swap, the need to invest locally into hard to maintain rendering facilities will also be reduced and more and more companies will be able to use these technologies to produce quickly very high resolution rendered images.

The role of photographs will focus on capturing high resolution environment images, but the amount needed will be a lot less than that of actual products and these will be delivered by specialized stock companies. Images featuring humans will take a few more years, but I am fully confident that perfect renderings of human figures will be common place in 5 years from now.

High end lifestyle items like cars that rely heavily on location settings migth take a bit more time.

Product photography is not a domain where I would start to work in nowadays.

Cheers,
Bernard

This just ruined my week...  After suffering a malignant brain tumor and trying to start a new career because my old career just isn't possible post operation after the affects of an open craniotomy it looks like...  life just turned another shade darker.  In the end I hope were wrong but it seems like the most logical future for photog's.
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BernardLanguillier

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 02:20:52 am »

Quote from: JanKaarSchwieterman
This just ruined my week...  After suffering a malignant brain tumor and trying to start a new career because my old career just isn't possible post operation after the affects of an open craniotomy it looks like...  life just turned another shade darker.  In the end I hope were wrong but it seems like the most logical future for photog's.

Sorry to hear this, but I am just a messenger of an overall trend.

You should of course assess the details of the market you were targeting and double check all this in the context of your geography, etc... There are certainly many domains that will remain firmly in photographic realm for years to come.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Bernard

JamieA

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 12:57:25 pm »

Take a look at this: http://vimeo.com/5989754?hd=1
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JamieA

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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 01:10:08 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Sorry to hear this, but I am just a messenger of an overall trend.

You should of course assess the details of the market you were targeting and double check all this in the context of your geography, etc... There are certainly many domains that will remain firmly in photographic realm for years to come.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, one should not forget that electronical gadgets are not the only products that need require still life photography. In fact, I would say it's only a fraction of the still life sector. I just cannot imagine that now or in the near future any company would prefer to make a 3D rendering of, say, a perfume bottle or a pair of leather shoes etc..
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teddillard

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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 07:36:45 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I happen to know a bit about this domain, my personnal assessement is that 90% of the equipment images from large corporations will be done with rendering 3 years from now. It is already the case for most consumer electronics for the very simple reason that products start to get markeded before a physical sample even exists...

Qualitywise we are were we need to be, and most equipment is nowadays designed with 3D cad, the best of them featuring integrated high end rendering solutions avoiding the need of data conversion and costly surfaces healing.

As cloud computing becomes pervasive along with the increase of performance of CPU, memory and swap, the need to invest locally into hard to maintain rendering facilities will also be reduced and more and more companies will be able to use these technologies to produce quickly very high resolution rendered images.

The role of photographs will focus on capturing high resolution environment images, but the amount needed will be a lot less than that of actual products and these will be delivered by specialized stock companies. Images featuring humans will take a few more years, but I am fully confident that perfect renderings of human figures will be common place in 5 years from now.

High end lifestyle items like cars that rely heavily on location settings migth take a bit more time.

Product photography is not a domain where I would start to work in nowadays.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard, this is something that has been bugging me for a long time now, maybe you can explain.  How is it possible that even a few-hour shoot of a product is more expensive than a rendering?  Are the rendering rates that cheap?  I'd figure a good rendered image takes 2-4 hours at the very least...  

I completely understand the issue about prototypes.  I've shot more than my share of wooden and plaster mockups, but for catalog work, for example?  I don't get it.  

(... the title of this thread totally cracks me up.  We did a review of the Canon 5DM2 vs the iPhone as a joke, and that's all I think of when I see it!  LOL)
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Ted Dillard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 10:12:18 pm »

Quote from: teddillard
Bernard, this is something that has been bugging me for a long time now, maybe you can explain.  How is it possible that even a few-hour shoot of a product is more expensive than a rendering?  Are the rendering rates that cheap?  I'd figure a good rendered image takes 2-4 hours at the very least...  

I completely understand the issue about prototypes.  I've shot more than my share of wooden and plaster mockups, but for catalog work, for example?  I don't get it.  

(... the title of this thread totally cracks me up.  We did a review of the Canon 5DM2 vs the iPhone as a joke, and that's all I think of when I see it!  LOL)

There are probably still indeed many cases for catalog work where actual photography is still cheaper.

The main values of rendering are:
- you can have virtual studio templates between which you can switch in a matter of seconds to have very different light set ups for different type of products,
- re-shooting is easy if an image doesn't meet the needs,
- studio floor space/usage stops to be a problem,
- reflections of environment are never an issue (including the camera itself)
- as already mentioned, you don't need a physical part which can also make logistics a lot easier/cheaper when dealing with large objects,
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

cmi

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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 05:44:08 am »

Quote from: teddillard
Bernard, this is something that has been bugging me for a long time now, maybe you can explain.  How is it possible that even a few-hour shoot of a product is more expensive than a rendering?  Are the rendering rates that cheap?  I'd figure a good rendered image takes 2-4 hours at the very least...  

I completely understand the issue about prototypes.  I've shot more than my share of wooden and plaster mockups, but for catalog work, for example?  I don't get it.  

(... the title of this thread totally cracks me up.  We did a review of the Canon 5DM2 vs the iPhone as a joke, and that's all I think of when I see it!  LOL)

I was about to write this earlier,

its a common miscoception that rendering times are the biggest concern in 3D. Much more demanding is setup time, the time needed until you can render.

Of course its hard to generalize, depending on the complexity of the product and enviroment (reflections, refractions and complicated light) a rendering can indeed take hours. But even in this case you have the flexibility to re-render anytime and to re-use it for animations once set up. I would say the more common time would be anything betwheen 10-30 minutes. And its not that render times are out of your control. You are the master, and you build the scene with the resulting rendertime in mind, and optimize accordingly. Also even if an image takes 5 hours, on a multicore it runs in the background and doesnt disturb you, you can do other things in the meantime.

So as an example, for product shoots, if you have the CAD data, that takes you maybe 30 minutes (maybe 2 minutes, maybe 2 hours) reorganizing, after that you could put in some default materials, default light setups, tune it a bit, and push the render button. Half a day, done. If you are a beginner, you will take days to complete, if that is enough because you have to learn the basics, but if you do this stuff regulary you get quite fast. I've done many technical product renderings in the past, I imagine to recreate the iPhone Shoot quick'n'dirty at screen res including creating a fast model would take MAX 1-2 hours or so, rendering time maybe 20 seconds in this case.

I once talked with a photographer who did product shoots, he saw how you could fire out quick 5 minute renderings of finished product scenes at different camera angles, he described that experience as "scary".

So 3D is very much time and effort in the beginning, but once all is set-up and you only need to change small things, it gets much much faster. Photos will no doubt continue to have their uses also in product shootings, but 3D is way, way more flexible.
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teddillard

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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2009, 03:07:48 pm »

Quote from: Christian Miersch
I was about to write this earlier,

...

Thanks so much for that, Bernard and Christian.  As it would happen, I just had breakfast with a good friend who is shooting and assisting in NY.  His take was that product photography was all but gone, because of the ease of rendering, and the flexibility of the rendered product- turn, rotate, etc etc.  We were actually talking in terms of a lighting class he was teaching- doesn't even concern himself with lighting for tabletop products.  

Sad, actually, scary too.
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Ted Dillard

JeffKohn

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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 04:18:59 pm »

Speaking of photographing the iPhone, I just saw this linked on another forum the other day.

http://www.macworld.com/article/142177/200...rtimelapse.html

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Jeff Kohn
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JanKaarSchwieterman

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2009, 12:55:16 am »

Yes, both of the videos of the Mac World cover are enlightening.  Great reply's even if hard to swallow...
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lisa_r

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H3D vs the iPhone
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 03:04:10 am »

Looks like I got to this topic late, but you should be able to get a good shot of a phone by shooting in a very dark room, longish exposure  in the dark to "burn in" the displayed image, then fire strobe to expose the rest of the camera. Make sure the modeling lighs are off ;-)
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 04:36:34 pm »

Shooting images with TV or LCD displays is not hard as long as you do two things:

1: Match the color temp of the lighting to the native color temp of the display. This means you will have to make custom gels for your lighting. (See http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=37303 for a tutorial on how to do this.)

2: Match the intensity of the lighting to the brightness of the screen.

Shooting separate exposures for the display and the rest of the device may be necessary to avoid reflections from your lights on the screen.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 04:38:18 pm by Jonathan Wienke »
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