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Author Topic: Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes  (Read 3530 times)

parasko

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Hi all,

I'm seeking a digital setup solely for landscape photography:
camera + 3 lenses (wide, medium, short tele). Lenses need to have at least tilt (I can get by w/out shift).

What are my best options with either Dslr or Artec-type/Dslr system or MFDB system within a reasonable price range (I can't afford a 39mp MFDB but maybe a cheap 22mp)?

1. Anyone used Nikon's 24,45,85 PC lenses? Quality?
2. Do FF Dslrs still suffer from soft corners (I have only ever owned the original Canon 1ds-great camera for its time but those damn soft edges/terrible optics!!).
3. I prefer a single-shot method of shooting, rather than stitching, as my shots include lots of clouds, running water. But any advice on stitching setup appreciated.

 Any advice on a setup that can hopefully rival 6x9 film quality for prints in the range of 16x20?
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michaelnotar

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 06:48:57 pm »

perhaps an cambo wide ds for MFB, it runs about $5000 body with a lens, other lenses running 2000-3000. i paid 5k for the body and a 35mm lens, then look for a 60 (a hair wide of the normal 80mm) and perhaps a 120-150mm. those are FLs i use most. i do extreme wide and have a 24mm (14mm on FF SLR equiv). i also reccomend phase one, I have a P25 22MP back that i love. they are quite cheap these days.

the camera doesnt have tilt, but they just came out with an adapter for it. the lenses are phenomenal! tack sharp edge to edge, no vignetting (via a center  weighter ND filter)
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parasko

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 08:33:09 am »

How would a Dslr such as the D3x compare to a cheaper MFDB option in terms of image quality at 16x20 print size? Would the quality of the MFDB be noticeably better for this print size?
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eronald

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 11:05:18 am »

Quote from: parasko
How would a Dslr such as the D3x compare to a cheaper MFDB option in terms of image quality at 16x20 print size? Would the quality of the MFDB be noticeably better for this print size?

At 16x20 the dSLRs do fine. I recommend the new 17mm Canon shift, and generally the 5DII as a landscape camera due to superb DR.

Edmund
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edwinb

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 12:47:15 pm »

The Hasselblad V interface arTec has a lot of other options for cameraback fitting as well as the Sinar camerabacks
Edwin
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ckimmerle

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 01:10:26 pm »

[quote name='parasko' date='Jul 12 2009, 08:43 AM' post='297335']

A D3 or D700, both of which rival 6x9 film, will give you excellent results up to 20" prints, but in my experience start to go a bit soft beyond that. A D3x will get you 30% larger prints with the same print detail, but at a cost of 3x the D700 and almost twice the D3. Whether or not it's worth the price is a matter for each individual.

As for the PC-E lenses, the 45, which I use most, and the 24 are both excellent and may, in fact, be among the sharpest 35mm-style lenses ever made. Both work best around F/5.6 to f/8, although I have gotten excellent results with the 45 at f/16 and even f/22. I haven't used the 85, but am sure it's of similar quality. If you are going to, like me, stick to the 35mm-type cameras, these are must-have lenses for landscape work.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 01:11:13 pm by ckimmerle »
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parasko

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 09:55:09 am »

In terms of lens quality, how would Nikon's PC lenses compare, say, to Leica's 35mm lenses. I mention Leica as I'm currently using an M7 and their 35mm Summicron is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever used...Nikon and Canon lenses I have previously used just pale in comparison.

BTW Chuck, a great portfolio of images on your website!!

Quote from: ckimmerle
As for the PC-E lenses, the 45, which I use most, and the 24 are both excellent and may, in fact, be among the sharpest 35mm-style lenses ever made. Both work best around F/5.6 to f/8, although I have gotten excellent results with the 45 at f/16 and even f/22. I haven't used the 85, but am sure it's of similar quality. If you are going to, like me, stick to the 35mm-type cameras, these are must-have lenses for landscape work.
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Doug Peterson

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 11:52:24 am »

Quote from: parasko
Hi all,

I'm seeking a digital setup solely for landscape photography:
camera + 3 lenses (wide, medium, short tele). Lenses need to have at least tilt (I can get by w/out shift).

What are my best options with either Dslr or Artec-type/Dslr system or MFDB system within a reasonable price range (I can't afford a 39mp MFDB but maybe a cheap 22mp)?

1. Anyone used Nikon's 24,45,85 PC lenses? Quality?
2. Do FF Dslrs still suffer from soft corners (I have only ever owned the original Canon 1ds-great camera for its time but those damn soft edges/terrible optics!!).
3. I prefer a single-shot method of shooting, rather than stitching, as my shots include lots of clouds, running water. But any advice on stitching setup appreciated.

 Any advice on a setup that can hopefully rival 6x9 film quality for prints in the range of 16x20?

Comments above are right about resolution: all of the top dSLRs, with no cropping, fitted with the best lenses are going to show great resolution at 16x20 so long as the lens movements are pretty limited. However resolution is not the only measure of quality; dynamic range, color fidelity, smoothness of tones, amount and type of grain/noise, and 3D effect of the image (I call this tactile-ness), will be better with MFDB.

ANY retrofocus tilt-shift lens (any dSLR lens designed around a mirror box) will be soft at the corners with modest movements. The current batch are much improved from the last, but the fact remains retrofocus tilt-shift lenses are one of the hardest problems in optical design. The easiest to design solution for wide-angle tilt shift is a large-format lens which is designed for maximum resolution and movements. You'll have the added workflow/annoyance of LCCs (though very few of our customers find that much of a problem), the annoyance of no-direct-TTL-composition (though for wide angle work that's not a huge issue as you know from your rangefinder Leica), and will have to learn a new/specialized camera system (you'll botch many shots as you learn the system). However, there is zero ambiguity that it is the highest possible IQ available (short of extremely well handled 8x10 film).

A 22 megapixel digital back, when used with a lens with a large enough image circle (e.g. the Schneider 47mm XL) can be stitched into a 60 megapixel final image with sharpness corner to corner. This stitching is done within one larger static image circle so there is no distortion/geometric distortion when putting the pieces together, and therefore no loss of quality at the corners, and your ending composition exactly matches your input composition.

A Cambo Wide DS (CWDS) with a Schndeider 35mm lens mounted in their upcoming tilt-shift lens board would be an excellent place to start your search. Along with Cambo solutions in this category are made by Alpa, Horseman, Arca Swiss, and Sinar. A Cambo Wide Compact is also a great option if you only need tilt, and dont need shift. It is crazy-small, light, inexpensive and uses the same lens boards and most of the same accessories as the CWDS and CWRS so you could upgrade in the future if you decided you needed shift.

The Tilt-Shift solution from Cambo is not yet released, but should be out soon. Normally I would say don't even consider something not on a shelf (medium format history is littered with vaporware) but of all the companies we've worked with in medium format, Cambo has a very good reputation of delivering what they promise on-time. Given it's unique features, reasonable expected price, broad compatibility (any digital back and almost any rodenstock/schneider lens, and you can share accessories between their three bodies), and very good quality I think it's worth considering.

Also you'll want to consider which digital back you'll want to use. Obviously as an employee at a Phase One dealer I'm very biased. In my opinion you'll only want to use the dedicated raw processor for whichever back you pick (Lightroom is good, but not great at raw processing) and so the software associated with the back will be a critical and time-consuming part of your workflow. Capture One is very well thought of by Phase One users, as well as Canon/Nikon/Leica users. The P25+/45+ also have excellent long-exposure characteristics and can be used in extreme conditions which make it great for night landscape work. As well Phase One backs have an integrated battery (some other backs require an external battery when used on a tech camera).

I can tell you from some recent quotes our company has made to prospective clients that right now a full 22 or 39 megapixel setup with warranty and dealer support can be surprisingly affordable considering the quality bump from a standard dSLR+TS rig. As well REALLY good deals can be given on the purchase of new/warrantied/supported tech camera and large format lenses at the time of a purchase of a digital back.

Though this is a blatantly biased thing to say (I work for a dealer) I would strongly suggest working with a dealer if you go the MFDB route. The stakes are higher in MFD; the number of options are higher, the pricing is higher, the difficulty is higher, the quality is higher. A good dealer (not all are created equally) can be an excellent partner in sorting through all of the possible options, allowing you to actually shoot the equipment prior to purchase (novel concept in today's forum-sale and eBay world), and will support you after you purchase with both technical knowledge of how to get the most out of your equipment, as well as troubleshooting for any issues you run into. If my dealership, Capture Integration, can be of any help we are of course eager to do so.

One final thought; almost every one one of the landscape photographers who has purchased our systems has ended up producing at least a few larger prints than the originally expected. Photographers who SWORE to me they would never print larger than 20x30 ended up making 40x60s or larger (obviously not often, but for the shot-of-the-year), or for a paying customer (very often commercial enterprise near the landscape in question). So having the extra resolution (the 30-60 megapixel stitched images) is always welcome; it also allows you to crop heavily and still be completely fine in print quality.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One, Eizo, Canon, Cambo, Horseman etc etc Dealer
877.217.9870
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 11:53:30 am by dougpetersonci »
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parasko

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 08:11:34 pm »

Thanks for the advice Doug. I realise this is a bit of a sales-pitch on your part (no offense) but this does look like the road I might head down instead of dslr.

With all this talk about stitching, with either a dslr or MFDB, can I assume that no-one is really using a MFDB in the field as a one-shot system? That is, is everyone stitching? And if so, why? Is it because those dlsr lens optic problems of soft corners etc are also evident with MFDB? Or is it that photographers are just seeking more and more resolution so they choose to stitch?

It looks like I need to do a lot more research before I plunge into this as I would be buying a completely new system from the ground up (camera+lenses+DB).
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DaveCurtis

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Advice needed: digital setup with tilt option for landscapes
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 12:58:49 am »

Im using a canon 1DS3 and 16-35mm f2.8 ll and print at A2 with the Epson 3800. The prints are amazing and that's when viewed from very close distance.

This lens has it's limitations (field curvature even when stopped down) but once you work within these limitations it's a good zoom lens. A better option would be to use the two new ts-e lenses. Zeiss ZF lenses are another option (with an adapter if using on a canon) . Some of these ZF lense suffer from field curvature and have other limitations. The new 21mm Zeiss ZF has great micro contrast and is a very good landscape lens.
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