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mcfoto

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« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:22:24 am by mcfoto »
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Denis Montalbetti
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paratom

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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2009, 04:44:42 am »

Quote from: mcfoto
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...die-Lichter-aus

Also this form

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/59625-...ose-end-10.html

Other sources (from July 1st) say that the situation is still unclear until the end of July: http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286

For my part I wouldnt call them dead until I have read an official statement. I am afraid it will happen, but today its still speculations what will happen.
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mcfoto

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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2009, 04:50:38 am »

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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 05:52:42 am »

Until they were in trouble, I had never heard of them... even tho' almost all my photographic equipment is European.

They manufacture for Sinar?

Do they own or part own any other companies, brand names, patents?

Who owns Sinar, Zeiss, Seitz, Schneider, Rodenstock and any other major European MF company, and what is the prognosis for them?

And what about the Kodak and Salsa, who I believe make (all?) the electronic innards of the Medium format backs for the European camera companies?
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yaya

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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 06:17:25 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Until they were in trouble, I had never heard of them... even tho' almost all my photographic equipment is European.

They manufacture for Sinar?

Do they own or part own any other companies, brand names, patents?

Who owns Sinar, Zeiss, Seitz, Schneider, Rodenstock and any other major European MF company, and what is the prognosis for them?

And what about the Kodak and Salsa, who I believe make (all?) the electronic innards of the Medium format backs for the European camera companies?

1 hour on Google, Wikipedia and LL and you'll become an expert in the ins and outs of this industry
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 06:36:19 am »

Quote from: yaya
1 hour on Google, Wikipedia and LL and you'll become an expert in the ins and outs of this industry
I do have broadband, and search engines, and it would probably take at least an hour, and I was hoping that someone who already knows the answers might save me the trouble, and benefit thousands of members.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 07:03:49 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I do have broadband, and search engines, and it would probably take at least an hour, and I was hoping that someone who already knows the answers might save me the trouble

F&H made the Rolleiflex twin lens reflex cameras, as well as the 6000 (6002/6003/6006/6008) cameras. Sinar is owned by Jenoptik, a very large conglomeration of companies making optical and other products. Carl Zeiss is self-run, I believe, possibly public. Maybe someone else can fill in more, or more accurate, details.

Quote
and benefit thousands of members.

You mean that if you had done this work, you wouldn't have posted the answers here?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:06:35 am by carstenw »
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Carsten W - [url=http://500px.com/Carste

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2009, 07:28:44 am »

Quote from: carstenw
F&H made the Rolleiflex twin lens reflex cameras, as well as the 6000 (6002/6003/6006/6008) cameras. Sinar is owned by Jenoptik, a very large conglomeration of companies making optical and other products. Carl Zeiss is self-run, I believe, possibly public. Maybe someone else can fill in more, or more accurate, details.
Thank you for your reply. They made the HY6 for Sinar, didn't they?
Quote
You mean that if you had done this work, you wouldn't have posted the answers here?
When someone asks a question and I know the answer - I provide it.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2009, 08:40:29 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thank you for your reply. They made the HY6 for Sinar, didn't they?

For Jenoptik, on contract. They didn't own the Hy6 design or rights. Jenoptik is theoretically free to find another manufacturer, although who is a difficult question. Most companies capable would be considered competition, like Leica, and others would likely not be interested because it would put them into competition with their own customers, like Zeiss.
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mmurph

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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2009, 11:10:15 am »

Quote from: carstenw
Jenoptik is theoretically free to find another manufacturer, although who is a difficult question.

The first question is probably the tooling to make the equip. How unique is it? How much is custom to this camera?

Without Leaf/Phase, they have to justify buying & setting up all of the tooling and process at 1/2 the volume in a depressed market.

On the other hand, F&H tooling may be had for a song out of bancruptcy. But how soon? That could drag on & on, giiven this "new disclosure about old obligations." Are we talking WWII claims?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 11:11:02 am by mmurph »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 11:10:29 am »

Quote from: carstenw
For Jenoptik, on contract. They didn't own the Hy6 design or rights. Jenoptik is theoretically free to find another manufacturer, although who is a difficult question. Most companies capable would be considered competition, like Leica, and others would likely not be interested because it would put them into competition with their own customers, like Zeiss.
Thanks - if Sinar had had a 50Mpx back available at the time, I would have seriously considered an HY6/P3/M instead of the H3D/P3 I have. Getting a 50 Mpx point-and-shoot and a nice £2,500 zoom for a grand or two more than the price of the back seemed a good offer, until I discovered that they had not implemented live view!
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Geoffrey

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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 11:36:19 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thank you for your reply. They made the HY6 for Sinar, didn't they?

When someone asks a question and I know the answer - I provide it.

Dick -

You are walking into a rather difficult moment - when a company that many of us admire greatly is closing (likely), and you are asking what they have done....

Its a long list, and one where you could (with a wee bit of probing) find out more. There are lots of references to their product, over some 70+ years of manufacturing.

Geoff
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Carsten W

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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 11:41:25 am »

Quote from: mmurph
The first question is probably the tooling to make the equip. How unique is it? How much is custom to this camera?

Without Leaf/Phase, they have to justify buying & setting up all of the tooling and process at 1/2 the volume in a depressed market.

On the other hand, F&H tooling may be had for a song out of bancruptcy. But how soon? That could drag on & on, giiven this "new disclosure about old obligations." Are we talking WWII claims?

The tooling was leased or rented, I read somewhere, perhaps an earlier Photoscala.de article. In other words, when F&H returns it, it could be re-leased from there.

I don't think F&H could still have debts as old as WWII; more likely from around the time that photography went digital.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 11:42:54 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thanks - if Sinar had had a 50Mpx back available at the time, I would have seriously considered an HY6/P3/M instead of the H3D/P3 I have. Getting a 50 Mpx point-and-shoot and a nice £2,500 zoom for a grand or two more than the price of the back seemed a good offer, until I discovered that they had not implemented live view!

Yes, the MF companies seem to be very bad about promising things "tomorrow" and delivering 6 months down the line. To be fair to Hasselblad, they do appear to be working on it.
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cmi

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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 01:57:45 pm »

In the comments to the first link at Photoscala wild discussion ensued, with some people avidly pointing out the unfairness of letting die F&H, while other companies getting resuced.

One commet there I found very interesting, in fact so interesting that I took the time to translate it. Im not an insider, I only follow these threads here at LL with great interest, so other may judge if it is true, or not, or whatever. So maybe its useful for some of you. At least for me it sounded partly plausible, and very true to german thinking. (I must say Im also a bit frightened about that hardness and frustration wich sounds through the lines, unfortunately.)

And please forgive my funny choose of words, it had to go fast.


Christian



And here the translated text:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...#comment-106307
=====================================================================
Indeed, as mentioned in another comment: witnessing this fiasco in its full depth is truly no fun at all. A few remarks are in order:

There can't be any "long-experienced" F&H-Insiders since the "new" F&H doesnt even exists 5 years. Compared to the old FH/Rollei era this is hardly a blink of an eye. Whoever has witnessed the daily trot there will acknowledge this.  The overall view at Wikipedia about Rollei is quite correct, comprehensive and factual. Anyhow it also tells about the whole misery burgeoning since 50 years, if read right. Declarations about (wrong) strategies you will hardly find there, not because of lack of inquiry but because of the lack of formulated strategy since decades!

They bobbed up and down in a supposedly safe haven wich got smaller and smaller, so they shrunk too. Informed longterm decisions, guidelines, or goals: None. Beside of lots of hot air from the "management" there where no real intentions. Sample needed? "Just build 3000 projectors, we will manage to sell them" Said this decade - the whole market should have not much bigger.  Thus the Dia-Pro montage perpetued quasi until yesterday. And the two lensed systems owed their zombie-exsistence the continuous japanese insinuations of "Horseman" Komamura, mainly to service the collector market, and of course suddendly japanese parts got part in the high class german workmanship.

Wiki shows (indirect), that important trends where consitently missed in Braunschweig by 5-7 years, even then it was not much more than random tumblings into a general direction. Own big-mouthed announcements where only followed at least 2 years later with actions. Starting with the adherence to the two lensed system end of the 50's when the others built SLR's since long ago, to the "Start" of the 6008AF, without AF-lenses (wich came 2 years later...) Such behaviour is not only deadly in todays market, it was ever since.  And that became apparent very good in all new projects of the last 15 years.

But in one thing they where simply ingenious: To attract investors of all kind, size and couleur, and to bestow losses measured in millions upon them. In the case of separation wondrously and repeatedly as relinquishments in favour of some "earned division-manager" at the MBO (management buy out). A equally big throw was the revival of the "nostalgic legend" F&H through utilisation of said grandchild generation, however only with abandonement of the brand name + the last machines & real estates in favour of the last looted investor. Whoever gets vilified as locust should at least keep the warm ashes of the burnt millions...

The questions about technical competence, quality, etc., are pretty much answered by the things told above.


Quote
es stimmt schon, wie es im anderen Kommentar zu lesen war: dieses Trauerspiel nochmals ausführlich auszubreiten, bereitet wohl keine Freude.

Ein paar Anmerkungen nur:
"langjährige" F&H-Insider kann es nicht geben, weil es die "neue" F&H keine 5 Jahre gab;
nach AltFH/Rollei-Zeitrechnung sind dies kaum 2 Wimpernschläge.
Wer mal den Trott dort live erlebt hat, wird es bestätigen.

Die Gesamtdarstellung bei Wikipedia zu Rollei ist recht zutreffend, umfassend und sachlich. Dennoch kann man das seit fast 50 Jahren aufkeimende Elend bestens nachlesen, wenn man denn will.
Aussagen zu (falschen) Strategien werden Sie dort kaum entdecken, nicht mangels Recherchewissen, sondern weil es seit Jahrzehnten NIE eine formulierte Strategie gab!
Man dümpelte im vermeintlich sicheren Hafen, welcher ständig kleiner wurde, da schrumpfte man mit.
Fundierte Absichten, Vorgaben, Ziele: keine.

Außer deftigem "Management"-Getöse wurden keine Intentionen druckfähig.
Kostprobe ? "Baut 3000 Projektoren, dann werden wir die auch los." So geäußert noch in diesem Jahrzehnt, da dürfte der Gesamtmarkt kaum viel größer gewesen sein.
So trug man quasi bis Vorgestern die Ewige Dia-Pro-Montage weiter.
Zwweiäugige verdankten ihre Zombie-Existenz den fortwährenden japanischen Einflüsterungen des Herrn "Horseman" Komamura, vorrangig zur Bedienung des Sammlermarktes, schleichrangig flossen in die deutsche Wertarbeit japanische Bauteile ein, aus wessen Produktion wohl ?

Wiki zeigt (indirekt), dass in Braunschweig wichtige Trends regelmäßig um 5-7 Jahre verpasst wurden, selbst dann taumelte man eher zufällig hinterher.
Eigene grossmäulige Ankündigungen liess man fast immer erst nach 2 Jahren auch Taten folgen.
Angefangen beim Festhalten an der Zweiäugigen Ende der 50er, als andere längst Spiegelreflex bauten, bis zum "Start" der 6008AF, ohne AF-Objektive (die 2 Jahre später...)
Sowas ist nicht nur im heutigen Markttempo tödlich, das war es schon immer.
War gut zu beobachten an allen Neuprojekten der letzten ca. 15 Jahre.

Schlicht genial war man jedoch dabei, immer neue Geldgeber aller Sorten, Größen und Couleur anzulocken und mit fortwährenden Millionenverlusten zu bescheren.
Im Trennungsfall wundersamerweise jedes Mal zur Überlassung an "verdiente Abteilungsmanager" im MBO.
Ein ebensolcher großer Wurf war die Wiederbelebung der Nostalgielegende F&H durch Benutzung der nämlichen Enkelgeneration, allerdings unter Zurücklassen des Markennames + der letzten Maschinen & Immobilie beim vorigen geplünderten Investor.
Was ständig gern als Heuschrecke geschmäht wird, wollte ganz legitim wenigstens die warme Asche der verheizten Millionen behalten....

Die Fragen nach technischer Kompetenz, gebotener Qualität u.a. beantworten sich aus dem Vorgenannten selbst.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:25:25 pm by Christian Miersch »
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ynp

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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 02:18:49 pm »

Quote from: Christian Miersch
In the comments to the first link at Photoscala wild discussion ensued, with some people avidly pointing out the unfairness of letting die F&H, while other companies getting resuced.

One commet there I found very interesting, in fact so interesting that I took the time to translate it. Im not an insider, I only follow these threads here at LL with great interest, so other may judge if it is true, or not, or whatever. So maybe its useful for some of you. At least for me it sounded partly plausible, and very true to german thinking. (I must say Im also a bit frightened about that hardness and frustration wich sounds through the lines, unfortunately.)

And please forgive my funny choose of words, it had to go fast.


Christian



And here the translated text:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Bei-Frank...#comment-106307
=====================================================================
Indeed, as mentioned in another comment: witnessing this fiasco in its full depth is truly no fun at all. A few remarks are in order:

There can't be any "long-experienced" F&H-Insiders since the "new" F&H doesnt even exists 5 years. Compared to the old FH/Rollei era this is hardly a blink of an eye. Whoever has witnessed the daily trot there will acknowledge this.  The overall view at Wikipedia about Rollei is quite correct, comprehensive and factual. Anyhow it also tells about the whole misery burgeoning since 50 years, if read right. Declarations about (wrong) strategies you will hardly find there, not because of lack of inquiry but because of the lack of formulated strategy since decades!

They bobbed up and down in a supposedly safe haven wich got smaller and smaller, so they shrunk too. Informed longterm decisions, guidelines, or goals: None. Beside of lots of hot air from the "management" there where no real intentions. Sample needed? "Just build 3000 projectors, we will manage to sell them" Said this decade, the whole market should have not much bigger.  Thus the Dia-Pro montage perpetued quasi until yesterday. And the two lensed systems owed their zombie-exsistence the continuous japanese insinuations of "Horseman" Komamura, mainly to service the collector market, and of course suddendly japanese parts got part in the high class german workmanship.

Wiki shows (indirect), that important trends where consitently missed in Braunschweig by 5-7 years, even then it was not much more than random tumblings after it. Own big-mouthed announcements where only followed at least 2 years later with actions. Starting with the adherence to the two lensed system end of the 50's when the others built SLR's since long ago, to the "Start" of the 6008AF, without AF-lenses (wich came 2 years later...) Such behaviour is not only deadly in todays market, it was ever since.  And that became apparent very good in all new projects of the last 15 years.

But in one thing they where simply ingenious: To attract investors of all kind, size and couleur, and to bestow losses measured in millions upon them. In the case of separation wondrously and repeatedly as relinquishments in favour of some "earned division-manager" at the MBO (management buy out). A equally big throw was the revival of the "nostalgic legend" F&H through usage of the grandchild generation, however only with abandonement of the brand name + the last machines & real estates in favour of the last looted investor. Whoever gets vilified as locust should at least keep the warm ashes of the burnt millions...

The questions about technical competence, quality, etc., are pretty much answered by the things told above.
Sobering ..
And I was also  surprised when I found out that they employed 131 people: too many for the size of the operation.
How many Hasselblad have in Sweden? How many APLA or Sinar have in their employ?
Yevgeny
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mtomalty

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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 02:31:24 pm »

Quote from: yaya
1 hour on Google, Wikipedia and LL and you'll become an expert in the ins and outs of this industry


With that in mind then, perhaps, more executives from these failing companies should have taken the initiatives you mention above.

Complaining endusers might be making unreasonable demands, at times, but at the end of the day it's these endusers who  have to be convinced to
part with their cash to ensure survival of the brand.


Mark



www.marktomalty,com
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 03:10:15 pm »

Quote from: Christian Miersch
Starting with the adherence to the two lensed system end of the 50's when the others built SLR's since long ago.
There was nothing wrong with the TLR concept, and the tele-rolie was the ideal portrait camera... they could have made versions with interchangeable lenses (like the Mamiya C330), or given them interchangeable film backs like the Hasselblad.

The world of photography has gone SLR mad, and, when live view gets a bit better, we may see the beginning of the end of the SLR.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 04:11:15 pm »

Quote from: Christian Miersch
In the comments to the first link at Photoscala wild discussion ensued, with some people avidly pointing out the unfairness of letting die F&H, while other companies getting resuced.

One commet there I found very interesting, in fact so interesting that I took the time to translate it. Im not an insider, I only follow these threads here at LL with great interest, so other may judge if it is true, or not, or whatever. So maybe its useful for some of you. At least for me it sounded partly plausible, and very true to german thinking. (I must say Im also a bit frightened about that hardness and frustration wich sounds through the lines, unfortunately.)

And please forgive my funny choose of words, it had to go fast.


Christian


Christian,
Thanks for your translation work and post - however I can't help compare this to the news circulating about another death - that of the singer Michael Jackson.  So much negative news about him, drugs, that he only made a few albums, family problems, his children not his own etc.  I guess all is fair however what can the man do now to defend himself?  And he did make some amazing music that toped the charts even so.

So back to Rollei / Franke and Heidecke....  Many of the worlds best photographer shot with a Rolleiflex TLR, quite a few use the 6000 series.   I've used the TLR this year and its brilliantly designed.  For a camera to function that well after 50 years...well I dunno what to say but the somewhere F&H got some things right.  Also same could be said about the 6008 AF that I use daily.  It's a wonderful camera, has more features than more modern cameras and the lenses are probably higher quality overall too. I couldn't believe that the RZ needed a special prism to meter when the old TLR I used had one that actually still metered correctly - and with no batteries either.   Have you ever looked at a catalog of the available accessories for a 6000 system camera?  They had scanning backs available in 1996 and a full frame 6x6 sensor available in early 2000.   Rollei got a LOT of things right technically, but perhaps not the timing nor the marketing and distribution.   I'm very sad to see them in trouble now or even done.  IMHO there is not a better MF system out there.  I realize that the Hy6 may have had some issues, but there were too many hands in that.    My hope is that a company that knows how to market a product and provide customer service will buy them and set things right.  
Eric


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cmi

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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 04:38:34 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Christian,
Thanks for your translation work and post - however I can't help compare this to the news circulating about another death - that of the singer Michael Jackson.  So much negative news about him, drugs, that he only made a few albums, family problems, his children not his own etc.  I guess all is fair however what can the man do now to defend himself?  And he did make some amazing music that toped the charts even so.

So back to Rollei / Franke and Heidecke....  Many of the worlds best photographer shot with a Rolleiflex TLR, quite a few use the 6000 series.   I've used the TLR this year and its brilliantly designed.  For a camera to function that well after 50 years...well I dunno what to say but the somewhere F&H got some things right.  Also same could be said about the 6008 AF that I use daily.  It's a wonderful camera, has more features than more modern cameras and the lenses are probably higher quality overall too. I couldn't believe that the RZ needed a special prism to meter when the old TLR I used had one that actually still metered correctly - and with no batteries either.   Have you ever looked at a catalog of the available accessories for a 6000 system camera?  They had scanning backs available in 1996 and a full frame 6x6 sensor available in early 2000.   Rollei got a LOT of things right technically, but perhaps not the timing nor the marketing and distribution.   I'm very sad to see them in trouble now or even done.  IMHO there is not a better MF system out there.  I realize that the Hy6 may have had some issues, but there were too many hands in that.    My hope is that a company that knows how to market a product and provide customer service will buy them and set things right.  
Eric

Eric, guess you have a point there. After all they cant have been totally incompetent if they lasted that long.

Christian

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