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Author Topic: My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film  (Read 3868 times)

Quentin

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« on: August 11, 2003, 05:57:03 am »

Pretty convincing, but there are a couple of issues that might have affected the outcome.  

First, although you are using a decent scanner with your Bronica rollfilm, it will not be as quite sharp as a drum scanner.  You say "There is information present in the 645 image, but it seems almost blurred", which to me suggest possible scanner limitations.  Of course, in the real world, most people don't drum scan their transparencies, so yours may be a more practical comparison  

Second, you are using a zoom lens with the Bronica.  It may be great, I don't know, and I'm not sure what the Canon lens was.

Still, even taking account of those points, the 1Ds must rank as at least the equal of the 645.

Quentin
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BJL

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2003, 09:48:58 am »

Thanks Jeff,

   in particular I like the "bottom line" methodology of comparing only through carefully made prints, eliminating all the haggling over pixel sizes and such in on-screen comparisons of direct digital output.

And although it is possible here, as with almost any single experiment, to raise quibbles (like the idea that a film scanner that gives far more pixels on the image than the digital sensors, and full colour uninterpolated ones at that, might be a significant limiting factor), the main conclusion is in scientific terms well established by the coherence of such such a large body of careful comparative observations. (The only "counter evidence" I have seen is rather irrelevant resolution comparions, involving magnifying so much that you have to squint to see through a dust storm of grain or noise.)

That is not to say that this conclusion is an unassailable certainty (science does not work that way), but that the onus is by now solidly on the digital sceptics to produce counter evidence, while digital users can probably just relax and confidently enjoy the new tools.

P. S. On rereading, my comments could be misinterpreted as an attack on quentin's, which was not my intent. The question of scanner quality is a legitimate one in the context of thorough and  sceptical scientific evaluation. I suppose I meant that if we relax from the criminal law's "proof beyond reasonable doubt" to a civil trial's "proof on the balance of probabilites", these observations add persuasively to a body of evidence which, considered as a whole, seems easily enough to decide the issue.
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Bartone

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2003, 12:38:19 pm »

A year ago, I did a shoot for a major liquor company - and they had me speak directly to their printer. He told me flat out that he preferred medium format to large, because the film base of large format made the scans less sharp than they could achieve with medium format (which has a thinner base). They weren't concerned with the res, as either filled the bill, but absolutely got better results with roll film.

So, next it's a test of the 1Ds vs 4x5. I'll be curious...
bartone
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jwjohnson

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2003, 11:47:53 pm »

I just got a Canon EOS 1Ds.  I had to see what I could expect from it compared to the image quality I was getting from my medium format system. (Bronica ETRSi).  Here's a link to my results.
645-1Ds
The short answer is that I'll looking for someone to sell my Bronica system to.
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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2003, 08:45:43 am »

Jeff,

Why am I not surprised?  ::

Michael
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jwjohnson

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2003, 11:01:27 pm »

Just to address a couple of concerns:

The lenses used with the Canon cameras were the 24-70L and 16-35L.  As far as scanning goes, I guess you can always say it might be better with a different scanner, but my main question was; can I do as well or better with the 1Ds than my present system.  I answered that, at least to my own satisfaction.  Thanks for your comments.
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Erik M

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2003, 03:42:24 pm »

It's an outstanding test. I hate 100% file crops. Scanned prints are a much better way to present the evidence; however, I've yet to find anyone who really liked a 20x30 from 645. I've never gone above 16x20, even with a drum scan, with 645 because it easily falls apart above that size. Of course this shows how impressive the 1Ds is. But I do think it was a wee bit unfair to enlarge the 645 shot to such a degree. I've always prefered 6x7 or larger above 16x20 to get satisfactory results.
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BJL

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My tests on 1Ds vs. 645 film
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2003, 01:27:54 pm »

Bartone,

   at least one 1Ds vs 4x5 (Provia 100F, professional drum scan) has been done by Jim Collum & Uwe Steinmueller at Outback Photo
http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews....ds.html

They gave a clear advantage to 4x5, but on the other hand, the cost per image ratio is about a million to one!
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