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Author Topic: Mamiya Digital Backs  (Read 17070 times)

vgogolak

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Mamiya Digital Backs
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 07:54:41 pm »

Quote from: michael
As good a Phase One products are, that's how bad the company's marketing communications are. On the other hand Canon and Nikon are also plagued by loose-lipped distributors and dealers.

As for the strategy of rebadging Phase backs with the Mamiya logo, sorry, but I disagree that it's a mistake. Hasselblad has worked very hard to broaden their distribution channels and lower their pricing, and anyone wanting to compete with them has to follow suite. No point in taking the high road and then going out of business, and I can't see how anyone with any business experience can argue otherwise.

Mamiya and Phase One are now essentially one company with different marketing and distribution strategies and channels. Makes sense to me. When Phase One and Imacon merged they similarly had to navigate these issues. It appears that Phase and Mamiya will do it a bit differently, that's all.

Let's not beat around the bush either. Leaf's future is very much up in the air, as is the Hy6 project and its partner Sinar. If I were to bet who will be left standing 6 months from now, I'd put my money on Phase / Mamiya and Hasselblad. I could be wrong, and hope that I am, because competition benefits us all.

Michael

If that is what turns out, by the fall Leica and the S2 will have a MUCH better market than people are predicting. The advantages I see in the P65+ are NOT in teshe 20% resolution, but in higher ISO and some of the ancillary features. A 40 MP camera with Leica lens quality, fully weather sealed and offering leaf shutters has got to be a winner.

There is nothing wrong with a Mamyia/Hasselblad market, but I for one will stick with my Contax, and do more with view cameras like the Alpa/Schneider. Others will do likewise with Rollei. Its the GLASS stu....

nope better not go there  

regards
Victor
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uaiomex

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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 09:07:18 pm »

DON'T SAY THAT!!!  

Let's not beat around the bush either. Leaf's future is very much up in the air, as is the Hy6 project and its partner Sinar.
Michael
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dfarkas

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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 10:33:22 pm »

This should be interesting. MAC Group (Mamiya America Corp) is the sole distributor of Mamiya, Profoto, Sekonic, Pocket Wizard, Toyo, X-Rite, and Tenba in the USA. They actually own the trademark and usage rights to "Mamiya" in the USA. I'm curious to see how this whole deal will shake out with regards to US distribution. I'm not making any predictions until I see some formal press releases and get some official MAC dealer memos in my inbox.

David

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RobertJ

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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2009, 10:38:51 pm »

All of this rebranding of Phase stuff to Mamiya and Mamiya stuff to Phase is kind of weird.

I think it's funny that right now at B&H, I can get a Leaf/Mamiya DL28 or DL33, but no Phase One products are to be found, even though they are partnered.  If rebranding means that any store with Mamiya products will now offer what is essentially a Phase back that is rebranded, then that's good news to me and medium format digital in general.  Right now the buying process for new MFD stuff is annoying, IMO.  It's a camera that costs as much as a car, but it's still not a car!
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 10:47:47 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Oh, the horror. "If they only knew the errors of their ways".

The more images that I see with Phase products with Mamiya logos, the more I just see Hasselblad (and their backs) surging to the forefront of the industry.

When it's scotch-taped to that Mamiya body, you almost expect to see one of those bumper stickers on the back of the Phase back: "My Other Camera Is A Hasselblad".

Almost makes you wonder, businesswise, if it wouldn't have been better to, instead of getting in bed with Mamiya, for Phase to announce a Talent Search for all the H1 and H2 bodies out there, and when they showed up for the audition, just kidnap them and glue a Phase back on them.

Another one bites the dust.


I think you're giving rather short shrift to what we have been faced with and how we have responded. Some time ago, we began working very closely with Mamiya - once it became apparent that Hasselblad no longer would be a viable platform for any digital product but their own. In that sense our hand was forced. There were frequent rumors of PhaseOne-related Contax revival, and I don't know how close that ever came to reality, but the fact is it never did. Which only left Mamiya, a camera platform with let's say mixed reviews. So we made the best decision remaining to us.

Our involvement with Mamiya has further evolved now to the point where we are joined at the hip. In doing so, we have charted a course (already begun) of a pretty dramatically improved camera system. Evidence of that is already seen in the new optics in terms of optical and build quality. I don't think the new Phase One digital lenses have to take a back seat to anyone. The camera is certainly a more involved work in progress, but improvements have been made to the point that a current Phase One AFDIII body with current firmware performs quite well comparatively in many respects, though not all. And more improvements - perhaps even with some surprises - are on the way and quite soon.

Remember, camera systems can improve quite dramatically. Even when the H1 camera began it was not a total success, but it has improved over time and the Phase One camera will also. Having the financial support to accelerate development is an extremely important part of that process and that is exactly what has occurred with our investment into Mamiya. Making new lenses and advancing camera performance isn't easy and doesn't happen overnight, but with the money there, it is now happening.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One


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RobertJ

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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2009, 11:49:18 pm »

Steven, I have a question regarding the future "645DF" camera coming out later:
Will this replace the 645AFDIII or is it simply another version that will be updated alongside the AFDIII?  Will AFDIII users want/need to upgrade to a DF body?  What was the purpose of this body, besides making a body that doesn't have film capabilities?  Is there an advantage to switching/upgrading to the DF?  Should it even be considered an upgrade?

If I wanted to get into the Mamiya/Phase 645 system right now, I'd be hesitant, knowing that there is another 645 body coming out, and the questions above would run through my head.  Just curious.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2009, 11:51:50 pm »

Quote from: Dave Gallagher
I see these two old crotchety photogs sitting somewhere just complaining all the time.   Its an image I can't get out of my head.  And the funny thing is that I know who they are and I see their faces superimposed on the muppet bodies when they talk!  Am I the only one feeling this?

You are right. I'm sorry.

However, I tend to view Master Cooter as more of "Real World Customer Feedback Technician", and not so much a Complainer. Let's not forget -- it was a User who identified the "dropped 1ds2 file thing while chimping", not Canon. And without constant harping about the mirror slap of the original H1, I highly doubt that Hasselblad would have added that Mirror Delay to the H2. So sometimes, customer feedback can create solutions that benefit many photographers. Yet, other things, like the LCD quality of PhaseOne, we've just thrown in the towel on, resigned to the fact that it might never get any better. (But if it ever does, I will credit the many people here who've publicly voiced their concerns).

But you are right -- too much harping lately. Apologies.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 11:52:18 pm by gwhitf »
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2009, 01:36:48 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
You are right. I'm sorry.

However, I tend to view Master Cooter as more of "Real World Customer Feedback Technician", and not so much a Complainer. Let's not forget -- it was a User who identified the "dropped 1ds2 file thing while chimping", not Canon. And without constant harping about the mirror slap of the original H1, I highly doubt that Hasselblad would have added that Mirror Delay to the H2. So sometimes, customer feedback can create solutions that benefit many photographers. Yet, other things, like the LCD quality of PhaseOne, we've just thrown in the towel on, resigned to the fact that it might never get any better. (But if it ever does, I will credit the many people here who've publicly voiced their concerns).

But you are right -- too much harping lately. Apologies.

You can actually attribute many features on the H system to customer feedback, so moan away, the voices are heard... sometimes.  ;-)

Chimping - hadn't heard that before.
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bcooter

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2009, 04:04:42 am »

Quote from: vgogolak
There is nothing wrong with a Mamyia/Hasselblad market, but I for one will stick with my Contax, and do more with view cameras like the Alpa/Schneider. Others will do likewise with Rollei. Its the GLASS stu....



regards
Victor


I don't sell cameras for a living, never have, probably never will.  (not that there is anything wrong will selling cameras).      

I also don't carry a lot of brand loyalty.  The cameras I like are the cameras that allow me to shoot in whatever style or conditions I want.

Now, if it makes anyone in Phase World happy, I'll go on record and say my Phase One backs are probably the most sturdy, foolproof pieces of equipment I own, (except for the Contax bodies).

I will also say that the p30+ has more than paid for itself 3 times over (the Contax on the other hand 10x over).

I believe both of my Phase backs will probably last for a very long time.

The thing is as of today, even with a semi-busy schedule, (not like last year which was bone crushing), I use my Phase backs less than any equipment I presently own.

They haven't changed, I haven't changed, but the client demands, anticipations, schedules, workload  have and honestly, I need more from a digital back than a 30' tether, a computer and 4,000 watts of strobe.  I need more from a camera than what the Phase and  Contax gives me and regardless of preference, build quality or marketing, I don't see the present day Mamiya a step up from what I presently own.   (Throw in a 110 F2, a 3" lcd and a removable prism and then you'll get my attention, maybe my cash).

Maybe someday the Mamiya will be there, though by that time I am positive I will be more concerned with 24fps and non linear editors than 40mpx.

The point I was trying to make is right now is probably the most competitive times in modern business history and it takes about 10 things right to get a gig, only one thing 1/10 off to lose it.

I'm sure the same can be said in the camera selling world and I guess that's what surprises me when we get these mixed Phase/Mamiya messages.  

Hasselblad cameras we're fine, actually became the standard of the industry quite quickly, though it took Imacon/Hasselblad digital  backs and software some time to mature and  gain traction.  Now it seems they are there.  The Hasselblad marketing is definitely "there" and that's probably the biggest difference between the brands.

Still I agree with gwitf that the  "constructive criticism" goes nowhere.

People at Phase are smart, they can read, they know what people are asking for and me or anyone else repeating it is just a waste of time.

I wish Phase luck, same with Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar, but today we make our own luck.

Anyway, it's been a long day, same tomorrow so good night, actually good morning.

B


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gwhitf

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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2009, 09:13:26 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
You can actually attribute many features on the H system to customer feedback, so moan away, the voices are heard... sometimes.  ;-)

I have a working balsa-wood prototype of the Vertical Grip for the H2, in my garage. I will forward you the details, David. That's the only missing link for this fine H2 camera body. I have two models designed -- one with the balsa-wood AA batteries and a second one with the balsa-wood rechargeable 7.2v.

All I ask is 10%...
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2009, 09:16:42 am »

Quote from: bcooter
Now, if it makes anyone in Phase World happy, I'll go on record and say my Phase One backs are probably the most sturdy, foolproof pieces of equipment I own, (except for the Contax bodies).

I will also say that the p30+ has more than paid for itself 3 times over (the Contax on the other hand 10x over).

I believe both of my Phase backs will probably last for a very long time.

I'm quoting this just so he can't take it back!

Kidding... sort of.

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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2009, 09:18:42 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
I have a working balsa-wood prototype of the Vertical Grip for the H2, in my garage. I will forward you the details, David. That's the only missing link for this fine H2 camera body. I have two models designed -- one with the balsa-wood AA batteries and a second one with the balsa-wood rechargeable 7.2v.

All I ask is 10%...

That idea might float!

bcooter

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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2009, 12:04:37 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
I'm quoting this just so he can't take it back!

Kidding... sort of.



Doug,

You should have quoted the next line.

Anyway for the sake of clarity;

I have a great business partner and she tracks everything.  

In my time as a "larger than small sensor" owner I've owned 4 backs from two brands (one returned without penalty) and with used Contax' and a case full of lenses, the total net comes to a little more than $58,000.

That's not an earth shattering amount, but it's still more than pocket change, considering I've stuck those backs on used cameras.

I've spent about the same $54,000 on Canons and lenses though sold most of those older 1ds bodies for half price to put the total net at $44,000.  So my Canon investment is just 20% less than the medium format buy.

Once again, not an earth shattering amount.

A few years ago I shot about 60 to 70% with those "larger than small sensor" cameras, today I shoot only 5% with those same cameras.

What's changed in the last few years . . . client expectations.   No longer do we shoot 10 retail fashion shots a day, you shoot 24.   No more do you work one lifestyle location a day, you move talent and crew  to 3 locations and if your shooting advertising in studio, rather than shoot only in studio, we're renting locations, shooting lifestyle AND shooting the studio in a set we build outside of the location.

Now throw in video, ah yes, the V word and instead of  stacks of pro 7's, or acutes coming off the truck, it's HMI's, Tungsten, and Kinos because you've got to give them both, motion and stills,  without obvious compromise.

Last year, honest to God, we shot an Olympic Gold Medal Winner for a international campaign.  We shot video and stills on a black set, video and stills on a white set, video of her mother for voice over, an interview with the Olympic Star, then moved to location where a second crew was waiting and shot a 30 second spot plus the location still advertising.  All in one day and once again without compromise.  The AD just doesn't want data, or volume, they also want to win awards (in this case we did) and they want it done in 1/3 of the time.

It's a new, tougher world and things have changed.

I didn't change my camera selection due to costs, because as you can see the cost is about equal and I've already made the investment.    I've changed because of usability.  

It is almost funny that in the last 18 months I walk onto each set and  say to the First Assistant, give me a Contax with an 80 and he just rolls his eyes, knowing that ten minutes later I'll be holding a Canon with a 50.

These aren't my rules, actually I don't have any rules,  it's just the way the world is spinning.

B
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 12:40:35 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
These aren't my rules, actually I don't have any rules,  it's just the way the world is spinning.

B

I was just sent this youtube clip on the way our photo world is spinning.. I think any pro will appreciate.
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asf

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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2009, 12:44:23 pm »

fantastic, thanks paul

made my day

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gwhitf

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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2009, 01:05:11 pm »

Along the same lines of what Paul Moore and Massive Cooter are speaking of, I noticed this today:

http://www.winwithoutpitching.com/manifesto

It's mildly hokey, and seems sorta corporate-speak, but still, there are some good lessons to be learned here, in good times and in tough times.

Scroll down to the numbered list. Substitute "Photographer" for "Ad Agency", and see if the shoe fits.

I just hope that Gallagher does read this, and he substitutes "Dealer" instead of "Photographer" and then anytime I ask him something, even "Hey, how's it going?", I start getting Invoices for $85.00.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 01:16:25 pm by gwhitf »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2009, 01:36:20 pm »

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
I was just sent this youtube clip on the way our photo world is spinning.. I think any pro will appreciate.

Wow, that was like someone was secretly filming my life! Soooo true.
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2009, 02:33:52 pm »

Yea but it is nothing new either just comes up more now. Have to decide to say no, maybe or okay. Many times obviously we would love to say screw off but eating is not a bad thing either. LOL

The pricing does not bother me as much as show me how to do it so I can steal it and use it myself or tell someone cheaper how. That part has really become the real issue. Your talent and experience gets marginalized.
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ziocan

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« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2009, 12:51:10 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Last year, honest to God, we shot an Olympic Gold Medal Winner for a international campaign.  We shot video and stills on a black set, video and stills on a white set, video of her mother for voice over, an interview with the Olympic Star, then moved to location where a second crew was waiting and shot a 30 second spot plus the location still advertising.  All in one day and once again without compromise.  The AD just doesn't want data, or volume, they also want to win awards (in this case we did) and they want it done in 1/3 of the time.

It's a new, tougher world and things have changed.


B
Hopefully you asked and got some good dough for that "tour the force".
I believe that kind of schedule was imposed more by the availability of the celebrity other than saving money on prod. Sure saving money is always one of the priorities, but that would have been overkill, if it wasn't mostly imposed by the celebrity schedule. After all you had double sets, that, a part for hotels fees, hardly save any money.
I wonder what clients like these, are going to ask next..... and better have same sexual orientation and tastes, otherwise it could became a distressful experience.
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bcooter

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« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2009, 03:42:31 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I believe that kind of schedule was imposed more by the availability of the celebrity


Every schedule is imposed by a budget, what  they're paying the celebrity or the cost of production, usually both.

It all comes from one bottom line, whether you are priveliged to that information or not.

I work for profit, make a profit, life goes on, but don't think for a second that more is asked today than ever before and that's from everyone in every industry.


B
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