Would you like to see faster glass being made?

Yes

43 (56.6%)

No

15 (19.7%)

I don't care

18 (23.7%)

Total Members Voted: 71

[Graham Mitchell]

Would you like to see faster medium format lenses being made for medium format cameras? I don't see anyone mentioning this but perhaps we are all quietly thinking it? I'm curious.

Faster lenses of course give you brighter viewfinder, easier focusing (both manual and auto) and more selective focusing/blurred backgrounds.

Yes, this will generally add to the size, weight and price of the lenses, but I am assuming that if you wanted the cheapest, lightest or most compact solution you wouldn't be using medium format in the first place.

One of the reasons I selected the Rollei platform was the fast lenses, but I would prefer them even faster. Although the larger sensor size gives us a stop or so advantage with respect to DOF, there are a few 35mm lenses which are a lot faster. I really started thinking about this when I saw Leica's proposed new lens lineup for the S2 - not that fast, and they had a chance to create a fast new lineup which could really offer something different.

So... more f2 lenses, even f1.7?

[paratom]

Would you like to see faster medium format lenses being made for medium format cameras? I don't see anyone mentioning this but perhaps we are all quietly thinking it? I'm curious.

Faster lenses of course give you brighter viewfinder, easier focusing (both manual and auto) and more selective focusing/blurred backgrounds.

Yes, this will generally add to the size, weight and price of the lenses, but I am assuming that if you wanted the cheapest, lightest or most compact solution you wouldn't be using medium format in the first place.

One of the reasons I selected the Rollei platform was the fast lenses, but I would prefer them even faster. Although the larger sensor size gives us a stop or so advantage with respect to DOF, there are a few 35mm lenses which are a lot faster. I really started thinking about this when I saw Leica's proposed new lens lineup for the S2 - not that fast, and they had a chance to create a fast new lineup which could really offer something different.

So... more f2 lenses, even f1.7?

I find the Rollei 50/2.8, 110/2.0 and 180/2.8 fast enough and also would not expect that I could handle shallower DOF.

[vgogolak]

So far I guess I am the only NO vote.
Remember, nature creeps in; faster glass will be bigger. I have 50mm 3.5 and at 2.8 (thanks o Graham!) I rarely use it, except that 3.5 is a bit sharper than the 3.5

In general like a cars red-line, and the reserve on a gas tank-it is there for emergencies, Not normal work. The wider open a lens the less detail, more issue

Laws of physics.

I would rather see better autofocus techniques, maybe a bit better CA control, and yes, a bit chrisper.

There are lots of ways to get light, like, getting more light, ev correction (most backs have at least 14bits, and 8-10 is fine for most work) and the magic ISO (like, bigger, not smaller pixels.

I think we are about at the limit for uncooled sensors (maybe a solid state refrigerator could make a 3 micron pixel work but, if you dont have the photons, you are not going to make an image.

Think ablou it.

regards
Victor

[Dustbak]

I would like it a tad faster and a lot lighter and more compact  

A 100/2.0 or an 80/2.0 would be nice. OTOH I am pretty content with the current available lenses for my system. If anything I would like a bit lower prices on some of them  (the ones I don't have yet but want to).

[vgogolak]

Well, there IS a terrific 80mm 2.0. I use it all the time. Tack sharp.

Of course, you'll need to get a Contax 645 body to use it...  

regards
Victor

[Graham Mitchell]

Well, there IS a terrific 80mm 2.0. I use it all the time. Tack sharp.

Of course, you'll need to get a Contax 645 body to use it...  

regards
Victor

Hi Victor, care to post a sample from that lens wide open? It would be a welcome addition to the thread.

[georgl]

"I really started thinking about this when I saw Leica's proposed new lens lineup for the S2 - not that fast, and they had a chance to create a fast new lineup which could really offer something different."

As far as I understood it, faster lenses will come in the future for the S-system, but they decided to go with CS-lenses first. Just look at the size difference of the 2,5/35CS in comparison to the 30-90 or 24mm (both don't have a central shutter) and you will get an idea how limiting central shutters are for lens designers.

[EricWHiss]

I think the Rollei system is already pretty dang fast

I've got the 80/2, 110/2 and 180/2.8  and they are wonderful.   Faster 6x6 would be just too heavy and big.

[Graham Mitchell]

I've got the 80/2, 110/2 and 180/2.8  and they are wonderful.   Faster 6x6 would be just too heavy and big.

I think you're right - they are fast enough for 6x6. Part of the problem is (most of) our sensors aren't big enough. If 645 size sensors become more standard, this will be less of an issue.

[vgogolak]

Hi Victor, care to post a sample from that lens wide open? It would be a welcome addition to the thread.

I'll see if I have one. But remember, I am NOT a fan of pushing lenses full wide (even Leica, the fast lens champs to some, are always quite a bit better 1/2 to 1 stop closed down.)

Now, having seen the Contax 35mm do so well,
wide opened (at 3.5),
at the corner,
 on a P65+
hey, I am interested myself.

Tomorrow I'll take a few shots with the 80/2 and we will see!

best regards
Victor

[brentward]

Would you like to see faster medium format lenses being made for medium format cameras? I don't see anyone mentioning this but perhaps we are all quietly thinking it? I'm curious.

Faster lenses of course give you brighter viewfinder, easier focusing (both manual and auto) and more selective focusing/blurred backgrounds.

Yes, this will generally add to the size, weight and price of the lenses, but I am assuming that if you wanted the cheapest, lightest or most compact solution you wouldn't be using medium format in the first place.

One of the reasons I selected the Rollei platform was the fast lenses, but I would prefer them even faster. Although the larger sensor size gives us a stop or so advantage with respect to DOF, there are a few 35mm lenses which are a lot faster. I really started thinking about this when I saw Leica's proposed new lens lineup for the S2 - not that fast, and they had a chance to create a fast new lineup which could really offer something different.

So... more f2 lenses, even f1.7?

Graham,

Did you happen to see this thread over at FM (85 1.2 converted to mamiya 645)?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/771979

[bradleygibson]

I'll see if I have one. But remember, I am NOT a fan of pushing lenses full wide (even Leica, the fast lens champs to some, are always quite a bit better 1/2 to 1 stop closed down.)

Now, having seen the Contax 35mm do so well,
wide opened (at 3.5),
at the corner,
 on a P65+
hey, I am interested myself.

Tomorrow I'll take a few shots with the 80/2 and we will see!

best regards
Victor

I've got two of 'em--just to weigh in with another opinion,  in my experience 80/2 is not at all 'tack sharp' at f/2.  Low contrast and astigmatism abound.  Not as much as the Schneider Xenotar 80/2, but certainly not what I'd consider 'tack sharp'.

I look forward to your samples, Victor--if yours are better than mine, then I'll know I've got to send mine in for some service.

As for the original question--I'd love more speed.  Problem is, the quality seems to suffer at these large apertures (even the legendary 110/2 isn't particularly sharp wide open--I speak of high frequency MTF here, not subjective 'sharpness').  And they're expensive and heavy to carry.   So assuming they solve all three of those minor issues, and I'm all for it!

-Brad

[Graham Mitchell]

Graham,

Did you happen to see this thread over at FM (85 1.2 converted to mamiya 645)?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/771979

No I didn't see that before but the results are interesting! Thanks for posting.

[EricWHiss]

I've got two of 'em--just to weigh in with another opinion,  in my experience 80/2 is not at all 'tack sharp' at f/2.  Low contrast and astigmatism abound.  Not as much as the Schneider Xenotar 80/2, but certainly not what I'd consider 'tack sharp'.

I look forward to your samples, Victor--if yours are better than mine, then I'll know I've got to send mine in for some service.

As for the original question--I'd love more speed.  Problem is, the quality seems to suffer at these large apertures (even the legendary 110/2 isn't particularly sharp wide open--I speak of high frequency MTF here, not subjective 'sharpness').  And they're expensive and heavy to carry.   So assuming they solve all three of those minor issues, and I'm all for it!

-Brad

The Rollei 80/2 is sharp at  f/2   and the 110/2 is very sharp at f/2.   I posted some sample images of each wide a while back - can't find the post right now but they are up there.  I was impressed anyhow.   The 80/2 does ghost halo around OOF objects while the 110/2 does not so much. It's nice to have both.

[tho_mas]

Contax 2.0/80 (P45)

quick setupt at home - overview:
[attachment=13945:CFT002873.jpg]

f2 (with usm)[attachment=13948:CFT002873_f2_usm.jpg]
f2.8 (with usm)
[attachment=13949:CFT002874_f28_usm.jpg]
f4 (with usm)
[attachment=13950:CFT002875_f4_usm.jpg]

as sharpening was just a quick action here (producing some artifacts) in addition the crops without sharpening if someone wants to figure out other sharpening sets:
f2 (no sharpening)
[attachment=13944:CFT002873_f2.jpg]
f2.8  (no sharpening)
[attachment=13946:CFT002874_f28.jpg]
f4 (no sharpening)
[attachment=13947:CFT002875_f4.jpg]

I have 2 copies of the 2.0/80. Both perform the same way.
At f2 it's not would I would call "tack sharp" and clean but for certain purposes it's usable.

[Graham Mitchell]

Thanks for posting. Sometimes selective focus is more important than being "tack sharp"

[tho_mas]

Thanks for posting. Sometimes selective focus is more important than being "tack sharp"

agreed, this was adressed to the statements above.
Regarding your question about faster glass even with the common 1.3 and 1.1 crop backs - compared to film there is a loss of 1.5 f-stops in DOF (IMHO). Actually there is not less DOF but as digital is so much sharper at the focus plane it looks like having less DOF. The digital sensors like contrast... so the sharpness in the focus plane appears much higher as the surrounded DOF - this is why even at f11 or f16 it's so important to focus accurate as one still see where the actual focus plane is (hope it's reasonable explained).

[georgl]

@thomas
I'll have to admit that f2 looks better than expected, even when stepping from 22->39->50MP doesn't make so much sense resolution-wise!?
The MTF looks dramatic in comparison:
http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embed...nar2_80mm_d.pdf

I have tested the Schneider 2,8/50 once - what a beast! But lenses for smaller sensors should be more reasonable.

The best fast lens I've ever seen is the Summilux50Asph:
[attachment=13956:RBBStudio002.jpg]
(1,4/50Asph 1/60s handheld 400ASA M8 - center is a 100% crop of the ARRI lamphead above)

Since the S-lenses share the same design-philosophy and manufacturer (even designer ;-) we can expect similar performance from f1.4/f1.7-S-lenses in the future.

[tho_mas]

I'll have to admit that f2 looks better than expected, even when stepping from 22->39->50MP doesn't make so much sense resolution-wise!?

yes, f2 is quite okay. Shot was taken at near distance (1meter); it's getting even a bit better in farer distances (but infinitey is too far, of course). As to the pixel size I 'd assume the bigger the pixelpitch the better the lens will perform (so it should be better with 9micron chips or so. Could try it with a P21+... maybe later on).

[vgogolak]

I've got two of 'em--just to weigh in with another opinion,  in my experience 80/2 is not at all 'tack sharp' at f/2.  Low contrast and astigmatism abound.  Not as much as the Schneider Xenotar 80/2, but certainly not what I'd consider 'tack sharp'.

I look forward to your samples, Victor--if yours are better than mine, then I'll know I've got to send mine in for some service.


-Brad

A I said, I hard ever use wide open, and would certainly NEVER accuse a lens of being 'tack sharp' wide open (don't know if possible, and would certainly question the sanity of the lens designer!)

The words "tack sharp" for the 80mm 2.0 Contax come from another person's  comment on a f5.6 shot I took in London (street, people) and the 100% from a P45+ was quite sharp.

Anyway attached are shots I took this am. quite close (DOF at 2.0 was about 1/4 inch!)

2.0 is soft, but I can't imagine when I would use such narrow DOF

2.8 makes a BIG jump

and the 5.6 is where I would normally shoot 'fast' (best 8-11)

The scene
then ceneter and edge at 2, 2.8 and 5.6 resp

regards
Victor

PS, these are, except first 100% crops of the P65+ at 60MP (ISO was 50)

PPS The center bud is NOT in focus-I missed esp at 2.0. Look at the right edge of the left image. Nice detail and the edge is clean.