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Author Topic: Black/White with MFDB  (Read 11479 times)

heinrichvoelkel

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Black/White with MFDB
« on: May 05, 2009, 03:30:58 am »

Hello,

I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:

1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W

2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?

3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?

Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
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Henry Goh

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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2009, 04:53:11 am »

I think you can test for yourself by downloading say Phase C1 Pro trial and converting some Raw files, be these from Canons or Nikons if you do not already have the back.  Choose a b/w profile and you see the conversion on screen immediately.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2009, 06:45:13 am »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W

It will depend on the back to some extent but my back's chrominance noise is more distracting than the luminance noise so if anything b&w looks less noisy. I always export to Photoshop in 16 bit and do the conversion there.

I'm not sure what seeing web-sized samples will tell you, but...

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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 07:22:45 am »

Lovely picture, Graham...

If colour aberrations were a major problem, them using Monochromatic light (e.g. sodium street lights) might be a solution (or a test). My Front lawn is well lit by street lights, so come and try it.

Apochromatic lenses shout also solve the problem.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 07:30:18 am »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?
What sort of outdoor subjects will you be shooting, and how soon?

I have only just got my computer and have not installed the software yet (ought to stop writing this and get on with it).

There is a  club here (Cotswold Monochrome) which specializes in monochrome, and I have the 7900 with 3 shades of black, and colorburst, which should enable me to do some good mono prints.
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 09:03:32 am »

Quote from: foto-z
It will depend on the back to some extent but my back's chrominance noise is more distracting than the luminance noise so if anything b&w looks less noisy. I always export to Photoshop in 16 bit and do the conversion there.

I'm not sure what seeing web-sized samples will tell you, but...


Thanks Graham for the picture. Which iso did you shoot this with, 100 ?!

To make things clearer, I will be shooting a lifestyle reportage, so the iso will vary. Most of the time I will shoot on sunny days, some overcast sky as well, some ( only little) nighttime stuff. With film I wouldn't go higher as 400, so I guess 400/800 iso will do with digital.

I could shoot it with my MarkII, but would like to go for the extra pop pf MFDB.

I know the web-sized samples won't do any good for pixelpeeping, but I'm rather interested in the idea of digital B/W and how different backs look ( if this is visible at all) and a walkable way software wise.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 09:21:45 am by heinrichvoelkel »
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william

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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 09:12:58 am »

(1) Yes, the noise at higher ISOs with digital is much less objectionable in B&W than in color.

(2) I convert the photo from RAW to PSD or TIFF in the raw converter (usually Capture One Pro, sometimes Lightroom).  I do not do my B&W conversion there any longer, however, since I got Alien Skins Exposure plug-in.  Renders lovely B&W based on profiles of film stock (e.g., Tri-X 400, pushed one stop).  You can set it to give you a particular film's "look" with or without grain.  (I usually choose with grain).  I was seriously skeptical of the ability to really replicate the look of B&W film in digital, but Exposure does so convincingly.

I will try to post some B&W samples from the Contax 645/P30+ when time permits.

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
Hello,

I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:

1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W

2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?

3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?

Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 09:20:52 am »

thanks william, will be interesting to see your pics.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 09:28:12 am »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
I know the web-sized samples won't do any good for pixelpeeping, but I'm rather interested in the idea of digital B/W and how different backs look ( if this is visible at all) and a walkable way software wise.

The lenses, aperture used, and post-processing will make all the difference to the look, not the choice of back.

FWIW, a 100% crop:



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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 09:41:04 am »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel
Hello,

I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:

1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W

2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?

3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?

Thanks in advance,
Heinrich

A lot of the time I do my conversions using the Color Editor inside of Capture One. If you are going to apply one profile (a.k.a. "film/filter characteristic response") to many many files then this is faster than doing it to the processed files. However, for working on a particular image there is no doubt the B+W tools in Photoshop and the variety of B+W plugins available for Photoshop are faster and easier to use.

Note a few other things:

In Capture One when shooting tethered you can set the look of the image, including the b+w conversion and contrast, and then have all incoming images only ever show up in that style. You are still capturing raw files (Capture One NEVER writes information to the raw file) so you can change your mind later. Combine this with the ability to shoot into a particular aspect ratio, and overlay a magazine/advertising layout on top of the image as you shoot and you can get really solid visual feedback per your final usage the second you take the shot.

You can set the P65+ and P40+ to display the B+W on the LCD. It's a strait grayscale conversion and you can't customize it to a particular B+W response (e.g. lighter green tones) but it better than viewing in color.  

My work is nothing special, and hopefully someone will link to someone better, but for now...

  Examples of Phase backs converted to B+W in C1 using Color Editor:
    B+W Landscapes in Moab Utah (Arches)
   Botanical Gardens

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 09:58:40 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
My work is nothing special, and hopefully someone will link to someone better,
Until I started on Luminous Landscapes, I could count the photographers whose work I admired on the thumbs of one hand - but I hope to be able to "nothing special" as well as you do.

I am hoping to get round to some flower macro soon (with my Apo digitar 120 and Sinar P3)... have you tried focus merge to increase the depth-of-field for macro?
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 10:04:33 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Until I started on Luminous Landscapes, I could count the photographers whose work I admired on the thumbs of one hand - but I hope to be able to "nothing special" as well as you do.

I am hoping to get round to some flower macro soon (with my Apo digitar 120 and Sinar P3)... have you tried focus merge to increase the depth-of-field for macro?

My current major project (unfinished) is shooting bug eyes at 5-10X with a P65+. To get any meaningful DOF (without softening because of diffraction) I had to stack 40-100 images.

Macro DOF stacking in a CONTROLLED environment and with sufficiently precise equipment is cakewalk. DOF stacking with sloppy gear or a chaotic environment (e.g. shooting flowers in nature) is an exercise in futility.

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SeanBK

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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 10:07:37 am »

Check out Nik software's "Silver Efex Pro"
 Works quite fine for me.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 10:36:17 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
My current major project (unfinished) is shooting bug eyes at 5-10X with a P65+. To get any meaningful DOF (without softening because of diffraction) I had to stack 40-100 images.

Macro DOF stacking in a CONTROLLED environment and with sufficiently precise equipment is cakewalk. DOF stacking with sloppy gear or a chaotic environment (e.g. shooting flowers in nature) is an exercise in futility.

Orchids, apparently, are easy, as they do not move much - a daffodil in the wind would be hopeless. Any plant outside might be hopeless to to phototropism.

I have a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses, which should give me up to 25:1... what lenses do you use?

I have a polaroid shutter to use with the Luminars, as it has a separate cable for cocking the shutter, avoiding touching the lens between pictures... Would you consider a Sinar P3 suitable or "sloppy gear"?

Do you re-focus using a focus rail, front standard or rear standard?  ... conventional focussing changes the magnification ratio, giving false perspective?
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 10:56:47 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Orchids, apparently, are easy, as they do not move much - a daffodil in the wind would be hopeless. Any plant outside might be hopeless to to phototropism.

I have a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses, which should give me up to 25:1... what lenses do you use?

I have a polaroid shutter to use with the Luminars, as it has a separate cable for cocking the shutter, avoiding touching the lens between pictures... Would you consider a Sinar P3 suitable or "sloppy gear"? I would have much preferred a camera stand or a dedicated repro/macro stand from TTI, but it's a side project so I can't go nuts.

Do you re-focus using a focus rail, front standard or rear standard?  ... conventional focussing changes the magnification ratio, giving false perspective?

I'm writing up a full report, and this is outside of my job at CI so I'll only respond briefly.

I'm borrowing Luminars from a forum member to complete my project. So far I've used Schneider enlarging lenses. I'm using a Sinar X and a heavy tripod (not a camera stand).

25:1 is insanity. I looked into it, and it's definitely possible, but only with the absolute most precise gear possible. I talked to TTI (copy stand and customs solution manufacturer) and they could engineer a motor-driven system that would be precise (extreme gear ratios) and reliable enough for 25:1  but would cost $10-$20k (little much for a side project ). Of course if you're not stacking images 25:1 would be relatively easy, but DOF is pretty much non-existent (you can't stop down at all because effective aperture causes diffraction immediatly.

I would love to use a focus rail but I found I needed to cover 1 cm of distance in 100 shots and could not find a focus rail able to move in 0.1 mm increments reliably (PLEASE jump in if someone has a device which would be suitable). So instead I used the rear standard. Magnification changes, but Helicon Focus does an incredible job of adapting to this. In this regard I consider it like stitching a panorama; ideally you rotate about a nodal point but the software is so good that this is largely unnecessary.  

I also devised a system for Phase One backs that allows you to fire the back/flash without any mechanical movement at all (no shutter release or mirror). I'll be documenting this in full after the project ends. Couple this method with the TTI stand (if you have $10-$20k) and you could capture 100 focus-stacked images without having to touch the system (i.e. set it up, and tell it to start, it does the rest) and the only mechanical movement would be along the extremely rigid vertical stand.

*crap* just realized how OT this is. I'll start a thread in a few weeks when I'm done with my project.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 11:05:09 am by dougpetersonci »
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BobDavid

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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 12:23:57 pm »

Seems there was some talk awhile back about Phase coming out with a 39MP monochrome back.
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free1000

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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 01:11:13 pm »

Raw Developer  www.iridient.com has a beautiful B&W conversion algorithm. CIE brightness mode. This is the default setting and IMHO better than anything else I've found, it blows ACR and Lightroom out of the water.

It also allows other forms of B+W conversion including a channel mixer and the usual greyscale conversion, but the default method looks best to me.

I use this mainly with Leaf Aptus files. Fantastic combination.
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focusgroup

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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 02:49:29 pm »

I have found light zone to be great for black and white.  I love how the app uses the zone system for adjustment.   Im not sure if it is available for mac.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2009, 04:05:50 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
I would love to use a focus rail but I found I needed to cover 1 cm of distance in 100 shots and could not find a focus rail able to move in 0.1 mm increments reliably (PLEASE jump in if someone has a device which would be suitable).
*crap* just realized how OT this is. I'll start a thread in a few weeks when I'm done with my project.
I am looking forward to you new thread...
I think that the usual technique is to put the subject on a spare P2 rear standard (or universal standard), and focus with that. If you are using movements, and your plane of sharpest focus is wherever, perhaps you can focus with tilt or rise?

With small subjects, you could focus with a micrometer... vernier or screw.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 04:22:07 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
With small subjects, you could focus with a micrometer... vernier or screw.

Any idea where I could get a micrometer accurate enough for this? The best I know of is RRS's B150-B Macro Focusing Rail. I have not purchased this but I don't think it would be enough. 1 revolution is 1.25mm, so I would need to rotate less than 30 degrees per picture in a reliable way.

Maybe someone who has used this system could comment. Maybe I could have them replace the handle with a larger one to allow easier micro movements?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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