Best 360x180 Panoramic Head?

[Stephane Desnault]

Hi All,

I shoot 360x180 professionally, upgraded about a year ago to the D3+14-24 (a SWEET combo  !). I currently use the Nodal Ninja 5L as a pano head. I also have the Manfrotto 303 SPH, but I find it really too bulky in 99% of the cases, even if it's sturdier.

Would anyone recommend another setup? I'm not eager to change, just looking for advice on whether I SHOULD change. The NN5L does have some torque and creep issues when doing a full pano - nothing that my software doesn't cover but it's a bit disturbing to go full circle doing a pano and find that what should be the "exact same shot" has been visibly reframed.

Thanks in advance.

[BernardLanguillier]

There might be others, but two names that you should probably consider are Really right stuff and 360precision.

I own both but have only just started with the 360precision head. My first impression is that Really right stuff is probably better suited for generic fine art applications while 360precision appears to be a great setup for the kind of things you are doing, always using the same lens at the same focal length and focusing more on fool proof operation where speed is essential.

I am now testing the 360precision gear to see how well it performs in challenging outdoor situations where foolproofness is the #1 criteria (like very steep icy slopes at high elevation in deep freezing weather before dusk). I should be able to provide some first feedback in a month or so.

Cheers,
Bernard

[erick.boileau]

I am having RRS pano too but I am interested by any feedback on  that 360precision

thank you

[BernardLanguillier]

I am having RRS pano too but I am interested by any feedback on  that 360precision

The one I have bought is the adjuste Giga, my first comments would be that it is a beautifully crafted piece of equipment that has the downsides of its qualities. It is error proof and allows fast operation, but:

- it is a bit difficult to use the head with different lenses since you need to unscrew two screws to modify the position of the camera relative to the rotation axis,
- the lack of locking mechanism for the Z axis rotation worries me a bit as far as images sharpness goes, I will need to test more to see if this can be a problem or not in the field.

Other than that, the lack of native compatibility with the Arca swiss standard is annoying:

- there is not obvious way to attach the camera easily and quickly to the head short of screwing it onto it each time and the size of the screw (M6 it would seem) is not compatible with any standard RRS clamp,
- there is no obvious way to attach the head to a tripod with an arca swiss type clamp, other than adding an arca swiss plate under the 360precision head, which adds weight, complexity and one more interface that could become loose at some point in time.

Finally there is no documentation whatsoever coming with the head, and that is regrettable for a product this price. The support has been responsive so far, but a few well written pages would help.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Stephane Desnault]

Thanks Bernard, that's very helpful. 360P and RRS are indeed the two brands I'm looking at.

What are your thoughts on RRS?  - I do use several setups depending on expected quality or the number of frames I have to build to cover the full sphere (14-24: 12, fisheye 16mm: 7).

My process often involves shooting several pics per frame, either for HDR or for compositing moving elements out, and sturdiness as well as resistance to vibration is essential. I find that with the NN5 I'm better off holding firmly the head and camera for best results when bracketing at full speed.

[Tony Ventouris Photography]

I have the full RRS setup for multirow and spherical panoramas.  I use it as my main tripod head.  If really doesn't need any additional documentation.  They have a full demonstration of it and its construction on their website.   Its great how small it folds up.

This head show go directly to tripod legs.  I attach it first to a manfrotto leveling base and then to tripod legs.  (the manfrotto is huge though, so it still works and is stable)

The RRS is nice because it doesn't have click stops.  You can do really fine increments if you are using telephoto.  Then again, I cannot really get the camera back far enough for a true nodal point over center for anything longer than 200mm.  Then again, at that point you probably won't be worrying about parallax anyways.  

I have the RRS configured so all I need to do is adjust my top rail for the lens im using.  Takes 2 seconds.  I've made a spreadsheet thats printed on a 4x6 card to keep in my bag as reference in the field.  

I personally love this setup.  It works very well, its precise, and repeatable...IF you take the time to use it right.  With PTGUI I get virtually perfect results every time.

[OldRoy]

There aren't many subjects that come up on LL where I have the nerve to contribute - or even ask questions - given my own relatively modest competence. But I've been interested in and making panos, both VR and regular (ie cylindrical single- or double-row) for a couple of years now. I've posted a few replies to previous questions on this subject.

This question is a bit off-centre, but I'm very curious about something that crops up here, as it has done elsewhere.  That's the use of the 14-24/FF body for VR panos. I have this hardware and I've tried it for the same application, albeit with an NN3 which is completely inadequate for this weight, even if it will do the job - just. For VR panos I've stuck with the rig I originally bought for this, a D200 and the 10.5 FE. I usually shoot multiple exposures at ISO 200 so the noise performance of the camera isn't a problem although I can see that it might be in some locations where you might need higher shutter speeds. I've shaved the lenshood off the 10.5 so I can also use it as a circular FE on the D700 but it really only saves two shots. I use PTGui for stitching and usually do my HDR first, using Enfuse/Gui.

My question is, why the overkill of shooting two rows of six shots (assuming no bracketing) with a high spec rectilinear lens for a VR pano which is almost certainly going to end up on a website at about 1Mb? Other considerations aside, the geometry of the lens is irrelevant given the total remapping by the stitching software.
Roy

[BernardLanguillier]

My question is, why the overkill of shooting two rows of six shots (assuming no bracketing) with a high spec rectilinear lens for a VR pano which is almost certainly going to end up on a website at about 1Mb? Other considerations aside, the geometry of the lens is irrelevant given the total remapping by the stitching software.

There are now a few java apps that let you zoom in within VR panos to check additional details. Another thing is that in a few years from now, the resolution of the display will be such that high res VR panos will be an obvious thing. If you intend your work to remain watchable for a long time, then it might make sense to go through the trouble of shooting multi-row panos.

Otherwise, one row with a very wide lens is good enough I guess.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Thanks Bernard, that's very helpful. 360P and RRS are indeed the two brands I'm looking at.

What are your thoughts on RRS?  - I do use several setups depending on expected quality or the number of frames I have to build to cover the full sphere (14-24: 12, fisheye 16mm: 7).

RRS has been working great for me. Another 300 megapixels image shot last week with it.



The only reason why I am considering other options is for those cases where ease of use and error proofness becomes the #1 priority.

Cheers,
Bernard

[OldRoy]

There are now a few java apps that let you zoom in within VR panos to check additional details. Another thing is that in a few years from now, the resolution of the display will be such that high res VR panos will be an obvious thing. If you intend your work to remain watchable for a long time, then it might make sense to go through the trouble of shooting multi-row panos.

Otherwise, one row with a very wide lens is good enough I guess.

Cheers,
Bernard

Noted, and of course this is relevant, however I wonder what proportion of VR panos are intended for such longevity, given that they are predominantly used in the real estate business?  Using a X 1.5 10MP sensor, a 10.5 FE, and stitching in PTGui I end up with a >200Mb 8-bit tif (I usually incorporate a full set of 3 nadirs with viewpoint correction.) Having tried multi-row VRs using a D700 and the 14-24, I felt fairly sure that it wasn't worth the additional effort, even for my own, non-commercial, pet project.

IME the VR pano doesn't seem to be regarded as a "respectable art form" in itself. Indeed most serious photographers seem to be very sniffy about it! A topic that doesn't seem to be discussed much.

Roy

[Stephane Desnault]

Hi Roy,

I do my own panos for use in digital worlds and for high end real estate clients (corporate, hotels, etc...) and the standard size I end up with is about 6-10MB for publishing online. The added resolution and quality of the D3+10-24 is very much welcome, though I was doing my work previously with a D80+10.5 (or Sigma 10-20), and selling just as well.

One thing I can say though is that my work using my new toys is undoubtedly better, and makes it easier to craft "showcase" difficult panos. And of course, I'm not only taking 360s: The distortion free, crystal clear pics I can now take in almost any light condition are a boon.

Best,

Stephane

[Stephane Desnault]

Wow, really a beautiful picture!

I just received the L Bracket from RRS and I feel I'll be buying their pano gear soon .

[fike]

I have a NN5 and a RRS setup.  The NN5 is 90% as good as the RRS, but 50% the price.  With your relatively light setup, I don't think there is any real reason to switch.  You won't be able to take faster images or better ones. One nice thing about the NN5 is the variable detent rings that allow you to move the camera by feel instead of watching the degrees scale.  That makes things move much faster.

[pixjohn]

i am also looking to buy a new pano head. I posted here my first test with a rented camera, lens and pano head. I shoot med format digital and need to buy a few new items.

I am looking at the RRS pano head with nikon d700 and new lens. I hate to spend money on a new d700 but not sure I want to get a cropped sensor.

john

[BernardLanguillier]

IME the VR pano doesn't seem to be regarded as a "respectable art form" in itself. Indeed most serious photographers seem to be very sniffy about it! A topic that doesn't seem to be discussed much.

Yes, that's true. It reminds me a bit of some of the reactions against the piece I wrote saying that fine art prints was maybe going to be replaced by high resolution screens.

I guess that people just need a certain physicality to consider objects as art. VR probably lacks the right display medium to gain more recognition. People just don't buy VR, it is seen as a tool.

Regards,
Bernard

[Ben Rubinstein]

Are any of these VR heads anywhere near strong enough to support a medium format camera? Heck the RRS panning head won't even hold a 5D with 70-200 f2.8 in vertical without difficulty (from experience) and these off center suspended in the air systems don't exactly inspire confidence in their stability. Luckily I don't suscribe to this whole nodal point stuff it never having ever been an issue for the mutiple row work I've been doing. I'm not doing anything near 360 though. Makes it much easier when you can use just a ballhead and RRS PCL-1 for multi row work without a problem.

[BernardLanguillier]

Are any of these VR heads anywhere near strong enough to support a medium format camera? Heck the RRS panning head won't even hold a 5D with 70-200 f2.8 in vertical without difficulty (from experience) and these off center suspended in the air systems don't exactly inspire confidence in their stability. Luckily I don't suscribe to this whole nodal point stuff it never having ever been an issue for the mutiple row work I've been doing. I'm not doing anything near 360 though. Makes it much easier when you can use just a ballhead and RRS PCL-1 for multi row work without a problem.

If you need to do pano work on sufficiently distant subjects with a 70-200 f2.8, then using a Wimberley sidekick is probably a better idea than any of the pano heads.

I have had good results with my 300 f2.8 on a D3x, which is much heavier than your set up.

Regards,
Bernard

[Ben Rubinstein]

If you need to do pano work on sufficiently distant subjects with a 70-200 f2.8, then using a Wimberley sidekick is probably a better idea than any of the pano heads.

I have had good results with my 300 f2.8 on a D3x, which is much heavier than your set up.

Regards,
Bernard

I shot this with a 5D and 70-200 f2.8L (@70mm) using the RRS PCL-1 in vertical. It needed a lot of effort to lock down the knob with that weight penduluming on it. It's 60 megapixels but looks like about 20 megapixels less due to what I percieve as the lack of decent stablisation. Not that 40 megapixels worth is something to complain about!  

[BernardLanguillier]

I shot this with a 5D and 70-200 f2.8L (@70mm) using the RRS PCL-1 in vertical. It needed a lot of effort to lock down the knob with that weight penduluming on it. It's 60 megapixels but looks like about 20 megapixels less due to what I percieve as the lack of decent stablisation. Not that 40 megapixels worth is something to complain about!  

I am getting tack sharp results 100% of the time with a 100mm Zeiss on the D3x with a spherical pano head. I stopped shooting panos with a 70-200 a long time ago after having many problems with sharpness... at day time I had in fact better results hand held with VR on than with the pano head.

Unless you are targetting resolutions above 500 megapixel, I feel that 100mm is a great focal lenght on FX bodies like your 5D.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Ben Rubinstein]

I am getting tack sharp results 100% of the time with a 100mm Zeiss on the D3x with a spherical pano head. I stopped shooting panos with a 70-200 a long time ago after having many problems with sharpness... at day time I had in fact better results hand held with VR on than with the pano head.

Unless you are targetting resolutions above 500 megapixel, I feel that 100mm is a great focal lenght on FX bodies like your 5D.

Cheers,
Bernard

That was a single shoot with the 70-200 f2.8L which I had borrowed from a friend. I actually use the Canon 100mm f2 usually for my pano work (about a 3/5 of this stuff www.studio-beni.net/jerusalem) . It's light and sharp and a perfect lens to shoot a pano composed with a 50mm lens on camera. I'm actually going to go back to using the 24-105L instead however rather than the two lenses, you need the vesatility in framing if only by a few mm much more often than the pure sharpness of the prime when shooting that many megapixels anyway IMO. With the shot above I had my back to the wall hence the need for 70mm and using that heavy telephoto borrowed from my friend standing next to me at the time. No doubt it's less the body weight and more the pendulum effect of that big lens that caused me problems.

Are you getting sufficient DOF with your 100mm? I'm usually right on the edge of the envelope of sufficient DOF at f22 but I'm pretty close up usually. I pretty much have to always refocus between frames as I rotate upwards and then slice the files on the computer so each has the optimum sharpness before sending to the pano program. It's the trade off of wanting to obtain a specific perspective for this kind of work, what would be easy to shoot with the 50mm in a single shot (plenty DOF) needs careful thought when using a 100mm for the same perspective due to using stitching.