Canon 1Ds - 11.1 million pixels

[Ray Robertson]

[font color=\'#000000\']I think I was saying there would be certain circumstances where the resolution of the 11.2 Mpixel 1Ds would be lower than the 6 Mpixel D60 and that this would be due to the lower pixel density of the 1Ds.

Let me take a specific example. One's biggest lens is, say, the Canon 100-400 IS zoom. One is shooting wildlife. 400mm is sometimes not quite long enough with the 1Ds. One has to crop to get that little bird on the twig a decent size. However, with the D60 and its 1.6 multiplier effect making the 400mm effectively 640mm, it's just right. No cropping required. Now, a 400mm lens produces an image of a certain size which is independent of the size of the sensor. The precise area of the bird on the D60 sensor will be the same as the area the bird occupies on the 1Ds sensor. However, the bird on the D60 sensor will consist of a greater number of pixels, ie. greater resolution.

On the other hand, if one is not at the limit of the zoom, the 1Ds is going to win resolution wise because cropping is done with the zoom and an 11.2 MP image is clearly better than a 6 MP image covering the same area but with different focal lengths.[/font]

[Paul Caldwell]

[font color=\'#000000\']I believe that most people will agree that the larger the individual photosite, the better as then you will have less chance of signal to noise ratio problems.  The 11mp solution should have a chance to offer the wideangle shooter the first chance at really getting all the smaller details or will it?  Some already made a good point here, the smaller the pixel size the more details I can pull in.  Now we have an 11mp sensor, but we also just increased the amount of subject matter that that sensor is getting.  Basically the size of an APS to 35mm frame, around 2/5's more data.  
I am wondering if a better solution would be the current 6mp sensor size with 2x the res.  Yes the noise issue would be considerable so it might just not be possible now.  
With the 11mp sensor, with the larger pixel size, it will also be interesting to see what the base ISO is.  
One thing you never hear about is the Contax N digital, it seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
This will be the first of many cameras based on this format, so will be interested in seeing just what it can do, in regards to the ablility to pull in the greater amounts of small details.

Paul Caldwell[/font]

[Ray Robertson]

[font color=\'#000000\']Well, I don't see that attempting to come to grips with the effects of full frame sensors is necessarily speculation, or if it is speculation it's probably because there are often issues that are glossed over or not spelled out by professional reviewers, that might be of interest to some of us. I remember Michael's first review of the D30 and his comparison with Provia F100. I found it curious that he never did a comparison at equal focal lengths. He cropped the Provia film shots by zooming out. There was no comparison between film and the D30 at 400mm, for example, leaving me to speculate on how much better my 'bird on a twig' example might be with a D30. Reviewers also don't seem to give hard facts on dynamic range. They comment on noise which I presume is related to dynamic range, but it's not the same thing, is it?

The Contax N issue raised by Paul is another case in point. When I read anything about this camera the first thing  I want to know is, how much better is the signal-to-noise and the dynamic range. But it seems to be a secret. The last I heard about this camera was a reference from the BJP that Kyocera was replacing all initial units sold because of a faulty power management system.[/font]

[jeffreybehr]

[font color=\'#000000\']Mike, based on the prematurely released Canon news release, the camera is the 1D, which has great weather sealing, spot metering, autofocus, and lots of other things, but with a full-frame CMOS sensor of 4064 X 2704 pixels, = 11.1MP.  It'll have a frame rate of about 3ps.

Go for it.  I suspect it'll convert thousands of film-using professionals and well-heeled amateurs.[/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks for the info Doug, Michael.[/font]

[font color=\'#000000\']Mike,

The Canon D30 and D60 seem to be much less prone to dust on the sensor than other cameras. The 1D is similar in that regard to Nikon's CCD based cameras.

My guess is that the 1Ds will be comparable to the D30 and D60 when it comes to dust resistance.

Michael[/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']Good point Jeffrey. I've been wondering that too. EOS-1DS with a large S would make more sense. And what does "S" stand for? "Super"?[/font]

[jeffreybehr]

[font color=\'#000000\']Mike--

Holy smoke, Batman...the 1DS will be your FURST digital camera?  I suggest you start with a used D30!  You could buy and sell it for about $1200, and it'll get you used to playing with CF cards, card readers, notebook computers for field use, CF-card readers, etc., instead of film, processing, lite tables, cataloging and physically storing slides, scanners, Digital Ice, etc.[/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']Well, I browsed Phil Askey's in-depth review of the camera as well as the official Canon website for the EOS-1Ds and downloaded two of the large RAW files. The Fruit Plate and Portrait1, the model who looks a little like Natalie Portman.

In examining those photos up close, it's obvious that Canon neglected to clean the sensor first. Just because it's CMOS doesn't mean it's not susceptible to dust, and both photos had some dust spots. Especially the portrait, which would keep one busy speck removing in PS.

Still, the quality of the photos, sharpened after downloading with NS Pro at 1440X1440 setting and "Anna" was very impressive overall, as it had better be for a $7K+ camera! I used the highest possible printer res setting in NS Pro because that was as close as it currently gets to what Epson's latest printers are capable of. I resized the image first to 7X10.5" from 72DPI to 360, sharpened, and resaved as an STN file.[/font]

[Larry Smith]

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael writes:
"I heard today from a large Canon dealer, (in a country and city that will remain unnamed), that the Canon distributor has asked them to get deposits from anyone wishing to place an order for a 1Ds. No reason is forthcoming, but my surmise is ..."

How likely is it that Canon is using this 'deposit' requirement to guage acceptance of their too-high intro price, ...since these depositers will be doing so without knowing whether the price will come down, and to-what. Why not just give Canon a blank check?

Maybe if anyone who puts down a deposit under this current price-rumor had to actually PAY this price, when the camera comes, and KNEW that they would, ...then the deposit-list would give a truer picture of market-acceptance-at-this-price!

Larry
 [/font]

[erik hansen]

[font color=\'#000000\']i understand where you are coming from.  i'll just be stoked if it really is a full frame sensor and i can get wide angle shots that i'm used to.  obviously the smart thing to do is buy a D60 AND a 1Ds to get the best of both worlds!  [/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']And again it begins, all the propellor-heads talking theoretical physics. It never ends every time something new is announced, people in anticipation(understandeable of course) start the debating over the fact that it will never work, yes it will, no it won't , yes it will, no it won't because yada yada yada.  

Pul-lease!! Give it a rest! Nothing matters but the real world tests folks. That's what people like Michael and Phil Askey do. They put aside all the near endless speculation and do the testing. When that happens, all the theoretical physics becomes real and we find out one way or the other how well the equipment really works. And we won't be seeing any of those tests for at least a few months, probably several. Now put away your pocket protectors and slide rules and go out this weekend and shoot something with the gear you do have.[/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']Happy to say I did go out and take some shots as well as enjoying my new 2200. BTW, maybe this belongs in the Printers forum, but I don't understand some of the anal griping I've read in some forums around the net about the 2200. So far, without any additional profiling and ultra-expensive calibration equipment, I've been able to get color output with the 2200 that I'm very happy with. And the bronzing, while noticeable at a few angles is overall not an issue.

Now back to the EOS 1Ds. Maybe I was being rude, pardon me, but I just decided to check out this thread to see if indeed, the usual debating and speculation was going on about MP counts, resolution and the effects of full-frame sensors. Sure enough, I was right. Y-------a-------w-------n!  My eyes glaze over every time.    

As for equipment reviews, if Michael can do a test and review of this camera sooner than expected, all the better. It's exciting because Nikon must also be just around the corner with their own new Pro SLR. We may see something new from them at Photokina also. Anyway, the kinds of equipment reviews Michael and Phil do are to me much more important than press releases and of course the constant speculation that follows. The proof is in the pudding and all questions are laid to rest in good in-depth reviews like the kind Phil does especially and others also. Providing the reviewer has adequate time to test the equipment and Phil usually does.[/font]

[Mike Spinak]

[font color=\'#000000\']I presume, as part of the 1D series, that this camera will be coming with a sturdy, all-metal construction, well weather-sealed, and have at least one (probably several) through-the-lens spotmeters, will have firewire, and maybe even decent autofocus? All that, plus 11.1 million megapixels, with a CMOS chip. If these specs are accurate, and if I'm reading them correctly, and speculating correctly, then I think this is finally the one I've been waiting for.

Does anyone have any comments on whether I'm rading this and guessing this correctly?

I may just switch to all-digital when I get my hands on this. Let's hope that this is everything it looks like it is, and that there aren't any intolerable peculiarities.[/font]

[Mike Spinak]

[font color=\'#000000\']Has a price been set? Does anyone know how I go about placing an order and getting on the waiting list?[/font]

[Mike Spinak]

[font color=\'#000000\']Michael,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

If the 1D is similar in that regard to Nikon's CCD based cameras (i.e., more dust prone, right?), then why do you guess that the 1Ds will be comparable to the D30 & D60 (i.e., more dust resistant)?[/font]

[jeffreybehr]

[font color=\'#000000\']Mike, the 1D has a CCD, the 1Ds* a CMOS.  Apparently the CCD is quicker cycling, making the 1D's 8fps speed possible.

*  Am I the only one to be annoyed that Canon chose the plural version of '1D', that being '1Ds'**,  to name their newest model?  Now when someone says they just love their 1Ds, you don't know if they have 2 of the 1D model or a single 1Ds.

**  Just as the plural of PC is PCs, and the plural of LCD is LCDs.  Ain't no apostrophes in those 'words'.[/font]

[Mike Spinak]

[font color=\'#000000\']Jeffrey,

Yeah, I noticed the poor name choice, which will cause confusion between the plural of 1D and the singular of 1Ds. Annoying and dumb.

By the way, I called my dealer; I'm number four on the waiting list. She said that they will call me back about a deposit, if I'm still interested, after the camera is introduced, priced, and has an SKU.

It looks like I'll have a few months to learn everything I can about digital before I get the 1Ds in my hands. Does anyone have any suggestions how to start?

Cheers,

Mike[/font]

[Rainer SLP]

[font color=\'#000000\']Hi Danny,

First of all congrats to your bird photography.

Your thougts do meet my opinion. I am still reluctant to go digital because of my type of photography where resolution=detail is everything.[/font]

[Marshal]

[font color=\'#000000\']Good point Larry.[/font]