Topic: Panasonice Lumix LX3 to DNG or not DNG (Read 14058 times)

jhaze · « **on:** March 27, 2009, 06:16:48 pm »

I'm trying to understand what is going on with this camera before I buy it. Apparently, the camera does some lens barrel distortion correction in camera for jpegs; for RAW, the Silkypix converter that ships with camera performs the correction automatically as default.

I've found a few threads here and elsewhere that were somewhat helpful to me, but I'm still confused. And Adobe's comment about ACR 5.2/5.3 wrt the Panasonic DMC-LX3 is really dense.

What I think happens is that RAW files left in the native RW2 format of the camera CAN be opened and worked on/displayed in ACR 5.3 and LR 2.3...although apparently you have to manually install the updater (from 5.0) not do an auto update from the Adobe site.

What I don't understand is that there are two manual updaters for Windows...one is "Camera_RAW_ 5_3.zip" and one "Camera_RAW_5_3_updater.zip"....?

And one can use the DNG converter but it will create files that are about 3X in size.

Are the lens corrections applied to the RAW file when it is opened in ACR 5.3 in the RW2 format? When are they applied in LR 2.3? When first viewed in Library, or only when in Develop module? Or are the lens corrections not applied at all? Or are the lens corrections only applied if the image is first converted to DNG?

If LR does lens corrections in Library mode in RAW format, do these overwrite the original source files, or just adjust themselves in the catalog?

If I'm using the latest versions of ACR and LR, what is the best workflow? Do I have to DNG to get the lens corrections? Or is the only reason to go DNG for people with older versions of ACR or LR?

Sorry for all the questions. I hope someone can explain this to me, obviously I am having a time trying to clarify the issue.

madmanchan · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:46:57 pm »

(I'm going to use the term "lens compensations" in this reply. Sorry, I know it sounds dumb, but I have to.)

Hopefully the following will help. The lens compensations are not applied to the RW2 raw data. They are only applied when you convert that RW2 to pixels (e.g., when saving to disk as a TIFF, opening in Photoshop, or printing) and when you convert to DNG. Preview images that you see in Camera Raw and Lightroom are pixel-based representations of your raw file, so they also reflect the lens compensations. Currently, converting to DNG requires applying the lens compensations (effectively baking them in) because that's the only way to get the results to show up in older DNG readers (both Adobe and non-Adobe software) which do not support lens compensations. That will change in the future when the DNG specification is improved to include image processing directives such as these lens compensations (something that camera makers have been asking for anyways). But we're not there yet.

My suggestion for the time being: If you're using CS4, just download the latest version of Camera Raw (5.3) and use your RW2 files as-is. If you're using CS3, download the latest version of Camera Raw for CS3 (which is 4.6), convert your RW2 files to DNG using the latest version of the DNG Converter (which is 5.3). In either case, archive your original RW2 files.

jhaze · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2009, 07:35:14 pm »

Quote from: madmanchan

(I'm going to use the term "lens compensations" in this reply. Sorry, I know it sounds dumb, but I have to.)

Hopefully the following will help. The lens compensations are not applied to the RW2 raw data. They are only applied when you convert that RW2 to pixels (e.g., when saving to disk as a TIFF, opening in Photoshop, or printing) and when you convert to DNG. Preview images that you see in Camera Raw and Lightroom are pixel-based representations of your raw file, so they also reflect the lens compensations. Currently, converting to DNG requires applying the lens compensations (effectively baking them in) because that's the only way to get the results to show up in older DNG readers (both Adobe and non-Adobe software) which do not support lens compensations. That will change in the future when the DNG specification is improved to include image processing directives such as these lens compensations (something that camera makers have been asking for anyways). But we're not there yet.

My suggestion for the time being: If you're using CS4, just download the latest version of Camera Raw (5.3) and use your RW2 files as-is. If you're using CS3, download the latest version of Camera Raw for CS3 (which is 4.6), convert your RW2 files to DNG using the latest version of the DNG Converter (which is 5.3). In either case, archive your original RW2 files.

That's a good translation, thanks. Sounds like I don't need to do any DNG conversion because the lens comps are recognized and applied in LR 2.3 and ACR 5.3 both for preview, and whenever an image is opened out of say, ACR to Photoshop. As soon as it gets to Photoshop, I guess it is lens corrected, even if opened as a Smart Object? After all, at that point the XMP has already been created...

If the XMP file has the lens compensation data in it(?), then whether LR writes it to the original RAW file on disk depends on whether one has selected "automatically write changes into XMP" option in LR or not?

Wrt to the two "manual" updater files...does it matter which one I use as long as I don't do it through the auto updater in Photoshop?

Again many thanks for making the techtalk more understandable.

madmanchan · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:01:08 pm »

jhaze, yes, the compensations occur even if opened as a Smart Object.

The compensations are not stored in the XMP. Furthermore, they are never applied or written to the original raw file on disk. They are only used during raw conversion (e.g., when converting from a raw file to a rendered file that gets stored as a TIFF or JPEG). The original raw file is never modified.

budjames · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2009, 05:46:32 am »

I purchased the LX-3 as my almost pocketable P&S camera. I love it, but the Silky Pics software provided with the camera is difficult to use. Now that LR2.3 supports the LX-3 RAW files, I find myself using the camera more and more.

I recent took a business trip to San Diego and took the LX-3 as my only camera. I got some nice images that I printed in LR. If Silky Pix was my only conversion option, I would have probably taken my Canon 30d instead and put up with the extra bulk and weight.

Cheers.
Bud

jhaze · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:41:04 am »

Quote from: madmanchan

jhaze, yes, the compensations occur even if opened as a Smart Object.

The compensations are not stored in the XMP. Furthermore, they are never applied or written to the original raw file on disk. They are only used during raw conversion (e.g., when converting from a raw file to a rendered file that gets stored as a TIFF or JPEG). The original raw file is never modified.

My last guess would be the lens corrections are stored in metadata with the original RAW file. They HAVE to be somewhere.

So the image opens from ACR into Pshop previewed as corrected for lens. But I STILL have to store it in another format before the preview in Pshop is matched to actual rendered file. Sounds like I may want to save a copy, as soon as it opens in Pshop.

Can I save in psd format as well as tiff/jpeg? After all, that preserves Smart Objects, etc. And I can still print from it.

Sorry for all the questions. This is probably my last one. You have been most helpful. I get the sense that lens correction data is the ugly step child of the RAW world.

madmanchan · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2009, 05:50:34 pm »

jhaze, yes, the adjustment metadata is stored along with the original raw file. This is becoming increasingly common across camera makers (e.g., Canon and Nikon do this as well with their recent models).

Once the image is opened in Photoshop proper (as opposed to the Camera Raw plug-in), you are looking at a pixel-based representation of the image. In other words, the image is no longer in a raw format, but has been converted and processed to a rendered pixel format. So, yes, the compensations have already been applied.

I am not sure what you mean about needing to save a copy. You are certainly welcome to save your rendered image as a TIFF, JPEG, PSD, etc. Normally, once you bring an image into PS, you are likely to do additional work (e.g., with adjustment layers). To save those additional edits that you make, you do have to save it to a rendered file format, e.g., TIFF.

Yes, you can save as a PSD. But I recommend TIFF instead (being a standard, documented format). You can also preserve Smart Objects using TIFF.

jhaze · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2009, 07:21:34 pm »

Thank you, that clears it up for me. Now just have to wait for them to be back in stock.

NigelC · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:50:22 am »

Quote from: jhaze

I'm trying to understand what is going on with this camera before I buy it. Apparently, the camera does some lens barrel distortion correction in camera for jpegs; for RAW, the Silkypix converter that ships with camera performs the correction automatically as default.

I've found a few threads here and elsewhere that were somewhat helpful to me, but I'm still confused. And Adobe's comment about ACR 5.2/5.3 wrt the Panasonic DMC-LX3 is really dense.

What I think happens is that RAW files left in the native RW2 format of the camera CAN be opened and worked on/displayed in ACR 5.3 and LR 2.3...although apparently you have to manually install the updater (from 5.0) not do an auto update from the Adobe site.

What I don't understand is that there are two manual updaters for Windows...one is "Camera_RAW_ 5_3.zip" and one "Camera_RAW_5_3_updater.zip"....?

And one can use the DNG converter but it will create files that are about 3X in size.

Are the lens corrections applied to the RAW file when it is opened in ACR 5.3 in the RW2 format? When are they applied in LR 2.3? When first viewed in Library, or only when in Develop module? Or are the lens corrections not applied at all? Or are the lens corrections only applied if the image is first converted to DNG?

If LR does lens corrections in Library mode in RAW format, do these overwrite the original source files, or just adjust themselves in the catalog?

If I'm using the latest versions of ACR and LR, what is the best workflow? Do I have to DNG to get the lens corrections? Or is the only reason to go DNG for people with older versions of ACR or LR?

Sorry for all the questions. I hope someone can explain this to me, obviously I am having a time trying to clarify the issue.

I have no option but to use DNG, as I have no plan to upgrade from CS2 in the near future, and I can't be bothered with Silkypix. Could someone just explain how I get my raw files through DNG into ACR (3.7 in my case), or do I bypass ACR and go straight to Photoshop?, i.e whats the workflow, and having downloaded DNG converter, which directory do I post it in, or does it do that automatically?

madmanchan · « **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:18:53 am »

It does not matter in which directory you put the DNG Converter. In fact, the installer should take care of it for you.

You just point the DNG Converter at your folder of LX3 files, make sure compatibility option is set to Camera Raw 2.4 and later. The resulting DNGs will then be readable in CS2. I recommend that you still archive the .RW2 files from the LX3.

NigelC · « **Reply #10 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:48:45 am »

Quote from: madmanchan

It does not matter in which directory you put the DNG Converter. In fact, the installer should take care of it for you.

You just point the DNG Converter at your folder of LX3 files, make sure compatibility option is set to Camera Raw 2.4 and later. The resulting DNGs will then be readable in CS2. I recommend that you still archive the .RW2 files from the LX3.

Thanks

Author Topic: Panasonice Lumix LX3 to DNG or not DNG (Read 14058 times)