Franke & Heidecke became insovent

[snickgrr]

Once a month I go to an evening of shorts..short movies that have been submitted from all over the world.  One they ran was from an Australian director (I think), Sunil Thomas.  It was a parody of a behind the scenes of a decision to use the Red camera over film.  
The director was begging on his knees with the account exec to not have "to use that crappy Red camera" and that film was not dead.
I laughed out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYGUejAKvgY

[pixjohn]

If I was buying today, I would have never bought into the Cambo DS/H2 system with my Leaf back. I would have saved my money and got a Canon. I am competing with everyone else who shoots with DSLR and clients could care less about the difference. I prefer shooting with the H2 but its a waste of money.  

[Frank Doorhof]

@pixjohn,
If you look at it PURE economical maybe yes, but how about your own satisfaction ?
For me as a photographer shooting medium format gives me the results I want for my work, and to be honest I also feel a bit sad that nowadays clients don't know a good photo when it bites them in the you know what.
We recently did a photoshoot for a national hairdressers wholesale company, posters will be supplied to all their customers.
The problem was that it had to be the safe, commercial photos, I did on my own free will some more extreme light setups and photos inbetween sessions and although every one loves them the most of the whole series they are afraid to use them because it's different so in the end it's the same old commercially proven shots.

And don't even start about ADs cropping or mirroring shots and thus in reality destroying the original composition.

In the end however if my bills get paid on time I deliver what they want and I will say ok, nice, thank you, see you next time, yes I had fun too.

In reality I think everyone agrees that 99% of the work, maybe 100% COULD be shot with a 12MP 5D.
Buy 3 in case one blows up or stops working, and you will have a profitable business and have your first capital on the bank, 100% true.

But.........
Somehow, deep inside of me (and I think that's the case for many photographers/artists) I really don't care IF I could do the work with a DSLR, I just want to deliver the absolute best possible, even if it's for an internet site.
Maybe that's a flaw in my character but it's always been there (never settle for second best).

James asked me why I never bought the AFi.
The explanation is simple, the same reason I never upgraded my Aptus22.
I don't want to throw away my money on more megapixels, I love the RZ67ProII and although it doesn't have AF I get 98% of my shots in perfect focus so why spend 20-30K on another system if what I use now does everything I need.
The END result won't be better if I shot it with an AFi or a 645AFD/III or a RZ67ProII, the differences between those cameras is minor but it's there, that's why I shoot most of my work with the RZ.
The Aptus22 has more than enough mp's for what most people need in fashion/glamour/beauty so again I see no need in spending a lot of money there.
I choose the Aptus22 for it's 1.1 crop and the ISO25 as long as it will keep running I don't see a need to upgrade, although I don't rule out anything of course (I also like new things).

But somehow if I had to do it all over again, I'm afraid I would again buy MF, although I know that it's an economical maybe not 100% wise thing to do......
In the end I strongly believe the photographer should sell his/her work by the images and not by the equiptment he/she uses and it really doesn't matter if it's shot with a pinhole, AFi10, 5D, rebel or whatever camera, the pictures has to do the talking.
Going for MF is I think pure a choice of preference, it's much better than a DSLR in certain situations, but a personal choice.

[tho_mas]

http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw

nice stuff, James!
I'm a bit confused that you talk about "dust" (in the title sequence) and finally about social life and authenticity and that you really create a kind of moody docu (though stylish) and then there is this casted "beauty" couple and both they look like they have never transpired once in their life.
I would cut them out - will make this nice short movie much stronger and much more focussed on the story you are telling... IMHO.
... if I am at the liberty to comment this...

[uaiomex]

Amen Frank

@pixjohn,
If you look at it PURE economical maybe yes, but how about your own satisfaction ?
For me as a photographer shooting medium format gives me the results I want for my work, and to be honest I also feel a bit sad that nowadays clients don't know a good photo when it bites them in the you know what.
We recently did a photoshoot for a national hairdressers wholesale company, posters will be supplied to all their customers.
The problem was that it had to be the safe, commercial photos, I did on my own free will some more extreme light setups and photos inbetween sessions and although every one loves them the most of the whole series they are afraid to use them because it's different so in the end it's the same old commercially proven shots.

And don't even start about ADs cropping or mirroring shots and thus in reality destroying the original composition.

In the end however if my bills get paid on time I deliver what they want and I will say ok, nice, thank you, see you next time, yes I had fun too.

In reality I think everyone agrees that 99% of the work, maybe 100% COULD be shot with a 12MP 5D.
Buy 3 in case one blows up or stops working, and you will have a profitable business and have your first capital on the bank, 100% true.

But.........
Somehow, deep inside of me (and I think that's the case for many photographers/artists) I really don't care IF I could do the work with a DSLR, I just want to deliver the absolute best possible, even if it's for an internet site.
Maybe that's a flaw in my character but it's always been there (never settle for second best).

James asked me why I never bought the AFi.
The explanation is simple, the same reason I never upgraded my Aptus22.
I don't want to throw away my money on more megapixels, I love the RZ67ProII and although it doesn't have AF I get 98% of my shots in perfect focus so why spend 20-30K on another system if what I use now does everything I need.
The END result won't be better if I shot it with an AFi or a 645AFD/III or a RZ67ProII, the differences between those cameras is minor but it's there, that's why I shoot most of my work with the RZ.
The Aptus22 has more than enough mp's for what most people need in fashion/glamour/beauty so again I see no need in spending a lot of money there.
I choose the Aptus22 for it's 1.1 crop and the ISO25 as long as it will keep running I don't see a need to upgrade, although I don't rule out anything of course (I also like new things).

But somehow if I had to do it all over again, I'm afraid I would again buy MF, although I know that it's an economical maybe not 100% wise thing to do......
In the end I strongly believe the photographer should sell his/her work by the images and not by the equiptment he/she uses and it really doesn't matter if it's shot with a pinhole, AFi10, 5D, rebel or whatever camera, the pictures has to do the talking.
Going for MF is I think pure a choice of preference, it's much better than a DSLR in certain situations, but a personal choice.

[mcfoto]

Hi
I have a friend & his studio was broken into. His MFD kit was stolen & he was insured. Even though he was very happy with his MFD kit with the insurance money he bought 2 5DMKII's & a new Profoto lighting kit plus a new lens. He was already a Canon user. He reassessed his business, the current economy, clients & his final anaylist was to depart from MFD. With the Hy6 platform to me in the end it was to little too late. I thought the bright view finder was excellent but 6x6 why, no 28mm. Hasselblad & Mamiya both have 28mm & 35mm making a complete system. With Red coming out next year with the 645 chip with a Mamiya 645AF mount will Mamiya sell more lenses on that format than there own Phase/Mamiya platform? I am beginning to wonder with HDV which has a bright future or will be the future as James says.
Denis

[gwhitf]

I love my H2/P45+ system, but I treat it like it was 500 shares of Apple Computer; it's ready to sell at any time, whenever the market's about to fall out of MF. In my opinion, all it's going to take is a next-generation of Nikon or Canon, and the day it's announced, Game Over. I love the Hasselblad, but at this point in this Digital Mess, I have no allegiance to ANY piece of gear. I can shoot a job with any camera you hand me, (it ain't the camera).

I almost want to put my H and P45 back in the boxes right after each job, so they're ready to go to Ebay the day that either the Red or Canon or Nikon is announced. Kinda like how a fireman keeps his boots and coat right by the firetruck; ready to go.

I paid over $11,000 for an Xserve RAID system a couple years ago. What's it worth today, still running fine, just like it did on Day One? $1,500, maybe two grand if I found the right buyer, and waited long enough.

That Russell fellow makes some good points, a couple posts ago.

I've *never* had a client ask me what camera I was shooting. (Maybe once, years ago, in the 1ds1 era, when some clients were still nervous, but in recent times, never). I've never shot a job that would stretch a 1ds1 file, (let alone 2 or 3), file beyond its technical limits. Ever.

Estimating a health care job now where they want 9'x9' (feet) mural prints as part of the job. I got all cocky with the AD and mentioned the P45+; he laughed and said, "No big deal, the machine that prints them only needs 100dpi file; any Canon will do it".

I don't have any fault with the MF companies really, (other than the complete ignoring of the LCD issue). I just think the economy, and the internet, and Video, and horrible stock photo prices, and Freddy Five Dee Down The Street have just come together to really transform the commercial photography industry. Almost like a Perfect Storm -- all at once. Look at this forum lately -- every other thread is "So and So about to go belly up". I just think, at some critical point, there aren't enough pipe-smoking, khaki-wearing retired rich guys with Excess Money To Blow to support an industry, and at that point, true innovation just stops. I think that's where the MF industry is right now -- at a standstill.

Yet, if you go to B&H right now, the 5dII is still probably backordered, even at full price, even in this economy.

I've been researching technical cameras lately for my Phase back, and I almost think there's been more true innovation in the technical camera segment than in the SLR MF segment.

Take this as a downer, or whatever. I simply think it's the truth. (And you would be a fool to not plan accordingly).

Just one opinion.

[tho_mas]

I've been researching technical cameras lately for my Phase back, and I almost think there's been more true innovation in the technical camera segment than in the SLR MF segment.

Though I don't know all details of all current MF SLR cameras (not at all) I'd agree here.
I think there will be a future for the very high res backs with crop 1.1 or full frame (40MP and higher) that produce IQ far beyond 35 DSLRS but for very specialized requirements... e.g. those where you primarly use tech cameras.
As far as I follow what you are saying, James, mcfoto, pixjohn and many others... everyone who shoots high volumes, shoots at a certain pace, shoots things for use in very different media... every of those photographers is obviously much better served by the fast and easy to use DSRLs... especially as their IQ (and resolution) meanwhile is extremely good (and with full frame the finders are very good as well).
The DB market will likely be more and more reduced to be an option for landscape, architecture, certain product shots, art and similar fields.
Actually a bit similar to large format film...

[gwhitf]

Though I don't know all details of all current MF SLR cameras (not at all) I'd agree here.

Yes, there's a tiny bit of difference between a 5DII and a P45+ file, but with the right type of Post work, when you really go in and work/transform a file, and within two minutes, there's not a lick of difference between them.

But you want to see some bad-ass camera design, and i'm talking high-end, with no distortion, and VERY wide lenses, and no stitching needed, go researching some of those high-end technical cameras. That's where the action is. That Artec/Cambo/Arca/Alpa and that crowd -- now you're starting to separate yourself from the pack. And no excuses, like with the HTS device. The question is: Can the fourteen guys on the entire planet that own technical cameras continue to support an entire MF segment?

In this comment, and my comment above, i'm ONLY talking about commercial photographers -- those guys that are down in the trenches, truly earning their living with this stuff. If your mortgage is not on the line, I sorta discount some of the comments I see here. There'll be another sunset tomorrow.

[tho_mas]

But you want to see some bad-ass camera design, and i'm talking high-end, with no distortion, and VERY wide lenses, and no stitching needed, go researching some of those high-end technical cameras. That's where the action is. That Artec/Cambo/Arca/Alpa and that crowd

I don't know if the action is there :-) There could be much more action e.g. with the arTec if it would be open for all DBs.
But yes, these cameras and lenses just give you much more options than any SLR without movements.
I use that small Cambo WRS just with the Digitar 47XL with it's enormous image circle. Flat stitching is easy here and you double the resolution of the P45 in a few seconds and it's still very remarkable IQ. Then ... it's very far from the 5D2...

In this comment, and my comment above, i'm ONLY talking about commercial photographers

that was clear...

[mattlap2]

MFDB will not survive if it is only marginalized to specialized uses of Food, Landscape and high end Architecture (low end has already been lost to DSLR).   There just isn't a big enough market to support even one company living on those scraps, let alone one that is capable of continual innovation.

The number of photographers that understand the benefits of a technical camera is dwindling, and will continue to fall as those that were part of the film age get older and retire.   Of course there are budget reasons, speed ones, and the notion of being able to fix things in post production.

I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.    When they no longer have the tools that have been used in the past.   It is almost like an evolutionary step backwards for this segment of the industry.    

One of the places Sinar made a huge mistake was not emphasizing the system they had in a technical camera.   They have always done a very sloppy job of marketing the system at the same time of having all of their future bet on that system.    Things might be very different if they had taught young photographers the strengths of view camera movements in the digital age.   Instead they have gotten distracted in far too many directions.

[tho_mas]

I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.

 

(interessting points, mattlap2)

[Frank Doorhof]

@Dennis,
The red 645 looks amazing but the pricetag for the brain alone is app 40K so I wonder how big that market with photographers will be.

On the whole I do agree on the economical issues of course.
However I would like to add something that maybe is overlooked.

When you compare prices on this moment between let's say a 1DsIII with let's say 4-5 good L lenses.
And take a RZ67ProII with the same ammount of lenses and an Aptus22 the price difference is very very close.

When I made the switch to MF the prices were higher, but still below 20K because I bought most of my lenses second hand.
I sold most of my Canon glass when I made the switch and only kept the lenses I really liked and needed.
The advantage was that the Canon glass still sold for a very good price, while with KEH you can buy MF lenses for almost nothing.

Especially now a days it's all very tight of course and if my studio would be broken into I would probably wait it all out but I think in the end I would still go for MF again.
Luckely we don't feel the crisis yet that much, I'm mainly specialised in teaching workshops and the instructional DVDs and we do some artists and work for hairstylists and somehow those markets are not "yet" slowing down a lot.

When we had the idea Leaf would stop and I experienced some problems with Mamiya I really thought about selling everything and switch back to Canon and wait for the next big thing whatever that would be, however I did a few sessions with the 5DMKII and although everything worked fine and the quality was very nice I really did not feel the same as shooting with the RZ or 645.
Also stopping down to app f16 had an impact to some of my shots with hair, and especially those shots has to be razorsharp and detailed. And also here goes, my client will probably never notice it but I did
So in the end we decided that it was best to just stay put.

I'm anxious to see however what the future brings, I really don't want more MP's, but I would love to see a 16 bits DSLR with high dynamic range and maybe an even bigger sensor.
Let's say something in between 35mm and MF and maybe that would indeed be the time to get back to a DSLR......
In the end I'm totally with Jamers, it really doesn't matter what camera you use as long as it does the job without sacrifices and at the moment the mix of MF and DSLRs does that for me, but I strongly believe that per person this will be different.
If you do a lot of catalogue work it's maybe wise to just shoot with a DSLR, if you do fine art work or big landscapes it's maybe best to shoot MF.

[rainer_v]

@Dennis,
The red 645 looks amazing but the pricetag for the brain alone is app 40K so I wonder how big that market with photographers will be.

On the whole I do agree on the economical issues of course.
However I would like to add something that maybe is overlooked.

When you compare prices on this moment between let's say a 1DsIII with let's say 4-5 good L lenses.
And take a RZ67ProII with the same ammount of lenses and an Aptus22 the price difference is very very close.

When I made the switch to MF the prices were higher, but still below 20K because I bought most of my lenses second hand.
I sold most of my Canon glass when I made the switch and only kept the lenses I really liked and needed.
The advantage was that the Canon glass still sold for a very good price, while with KEH you can buy MF lenses for almost nothing.

Especially now a days it's all very tight of course and if my studio would be broken into I would probably wait it all out but I think in the end I would still go for MF again.
Luckely we don't feel the crisis yet that much, I'm mainly specialised in teaching workshops and the instructional DVDs and we do some artists and work for hairstylists and somehow those markets are not "yet" slowing down a lot.

When we had the idea Leaf would stop and I experienced some problems with Mamiya I really thought about selling everything and switch back to Canon and wait for the next big thing whatever that would be, however I did a few sessions with the 5DMKII and although everything worked fine and the quality was very nice I really did not feel the same as shooting with the RZ or 645.
Also stopping down to app f16 had an impact to some of my shots with hair, and especially those shots has to be razorsharp and detailed. And also here goes, my client will probably never notice it but I did
So in the end we decided that it was best to just stay put.

I'm anxious to see however what the future brings, I really don't want more MP's, but I would love to see a 16 bits DSLR with high dynamic range and maybe an even bigger sensor.
Let's say something in between 35mm and MF and maybe that would indeed be the time to get back to a DSLR......
In the end I'm totally with Jamers, it really doesn't matter what camera you use as long as it does the job without sacrifices and at the moment the mix of MF and DSLRs does that for me, but I strongly believe that per person this will be different.
If you do a lot of catalogue work it's maybe wise to just shoot with a DSLR, if you do fine art work or big landscapes it's maybe best to shoot MF.

so we agree all.
nice
 

[Frank Doorhof]

so we agree all.
nice
 

The disadvantage of not looking each other in the eye.
Somethings can be read wrong or in different ways.

[snickgrr]

I wonder what the next generation of tabletop shooters will look like.    When they no longer have the tools that have been used in the past.   It is almost like an evolutionary step backwards for this segment of the industry.

There will be no next generation tabletop shooters.  Who cares if Medium Format survives because there won't be anybody to shoot with them.  It will be all CGI. The profession of being a professional photographer is dying rapidly.  I'll be the first to admit I don't see well into the future but this I can see very clearly.  Ten years from now, fifteen at the latest we will all be cast aside like entrails.  The technology is here and only needs to be made a bit simpler and cheaper.

Infinite focus, or not...tack sharp or not...perfect perspective or not...any background, any light.

any car, any color...$99.99

[Professional]

So long thread and i didn't read it from the beginning.

All what i can say is that i am a hobbyist photographer, and i know when i was a client in the past i didn't care which camera was used to get myself photo, but now when i've got into photography i became more picky and sometimes pixel peeper, and as long i am a hobbyist then it will not be a good idea to go with higher end gear for me, but i use 7 DSLRs and to my eyes they are all not in same quality on certain settings, for example the shot i have with my 1DsIII and 1DsII are slightly different even i take same view even with same lens and same settings, also the size are different, if i look both at 200x300 resultion then i will never tell the difference even if i included 8x10 large format shot at same 200x300, but when i check at 100% and i do prints up to A2 with my Epson 3800 or ven larger on labs then i see difference, also i did a comparison test very simple with my 1DsIII and H3DII-39mp, the colors and sharpness with Hassy was much better and then the Hassy was the winner simply.

Many here care about clients because to earn money, ok, i don't shoot clients and i don't earn money, so why i can't use medium format or large format for fun if they have something that any DSLRS doesn't have, should i become a professional to use MF or LF? must i have clients to buy MF? Am i not happy with DSLRs to buy MF? i love all my cameras and i use whatever i can use and if i am rich enough like some here or can earn money then i will go with more gear, i addicted Photography and it is my passion so i will never regret to spend even millions on it.

So about Medium formats, what should i know about them that it might help me? what you most pro here looking for in MF that DSLRs can't offer, only higher MPs? enlight me with more info about MF that we are hobbyists [Enthusiasts] don't know about.

[mcfoto]

There will be no next generation tabletop shooters.  Who cares if Medium Format survives because there won't be anybody to shoot with them.  It will be all CGI. The profession of being a professional photographer is dying rapidly.  I'll be the first to admit I don't see well into the future but this I can see very clearly.  Ten years from now, fifteen at the latest we will all be cast aside like entrails.  The technology is here and only needs to be made a bit simpler and cheaper.

Infinite focus, or not...tack sharp or not...perfect perspective or not...any background, any light.

any car, any color...$99.99

Yes CGI is here & we have used it on most our Ad work in conjunction with photography( last 6 months) . You have to come from the point of view that you are a photographic artist that can make an agency brief really come to life rather than an everyday Ad. With CGI you have to know what is possible & be able to work with the retouch artists to create the best quality work within a certain budget. IMHO gone are the days that every brief will be photographic.
For Frank
The RED camera @ 40K, in the film industry I don't think that is a lot. I can see rental houses buying this camera & since it uses the Mamiya mount they will buy lenses & considering the range from the 28mm to 300mm including 3 zooms. And the RED camera needs focal plane lenses. I have heard that Panavision is seeing RED!! Also I just saw a 5min movie trailer shot with the 5DMKII about a new boxing movie in Australia & it was amazing! The success of the 5DMKII is not only with photographers but is in the motion industry/video to. We now live in changing times & MFD (Hy6 ) is feeling it.
Denis

[Guy Mancuso]

Sorry I just have to say something first off the day I stop shooting for commerce will be a sad day but I will not stop shooting for ME. I don't shoot MF for just the clients I shoot it for my own satisfaction and the files i derive from it. When did we shoot only for commerce and take the easy road with gear and don't care as long as the client is happy, when did we stop caring about the images you produce and only care about the revenue. Sorry I don't buy any of this crap being spoken in the last several posts. If all your are doing is trying to fill a clients needs than you are certainly cheating the needs as a artist and sorry to say your professionalism is pretty damn weak to begin with. Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file and just because a clients needs maybe more web at the time do we shoot a P&S just to satisfy it, come one give me a break. If you got into photography for any length of time we all yearned for the highest quality images we can get for ourselves if you did not than what the hell are you calling yourself a Pro for. Stop the self indulgent patting each other on the back for shooting a cheap Canon and getting by. Grow up be a man and shoot beyond what is expected , is our pride that short sided and you want to stick a the name Pro in front of yours . So the Doctor title in life means absolute BS if you pats you on the head with Tylenol and says get a good nights sleep. As a client is that what you really expect for service or would you want the best medicine that doctor can prescribe. Not much difference folks . Just because someone takes the shortcut does not mean it is always the right path. I got this MF sitting right here in my face and trust me i am going to wring every damn cent of what I invested in it for me and my clients, now that is the attitude we should be talking about. What happened to the pride in your work the pride in satisfying yourself and the pride in walking away from a gig and saying to yourself, hell i gave it everything I had and damn I did a great job of doing it.

FYI this comes from the mirror you just walked in front of , not me. BTW this had very little to do with gear but the space between our ears.

Time to reread the manual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

[Graham Mitchell]

I don't shoot MF for just the clients I shoot it for my own satisfaction and the files i derive from it. When did we shoot only for commerce and take the easy road with gear and don't care as long as the client is happy, when did we stop caring about the images you produce and only care about the revenue.

+1