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Author Topic: Epson R-D1x Rangefinder  (Read 10398 times)

DarkPenguin

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Epson R-D1x Rangefinder
« on: February 27, 2009, 10:56:27 am »

It has been what?  4, 5 years since the R-D1?  Their CEO's camera finally break?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09022701...rangefinder.asp
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250swb

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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2009, 05:46:13 pm »

I would say the world is crying out for a proper up to date digital rangefinder (non-Leica and affordable) that takes Leica M/Voigtlander lenses, so why oh why re-release this? They must have found a pile of unused parts and decided to get them shifted out the factory come hell or high water. Only for the Japanese home market I see.

Steve

james_elliot

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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 05:51:26 pm »

The R-D1 was a wonderful camera. I have been using one for more than 4 years, and made thousands of shot with it.
It was a good camera for mountain hiking with the Konica 28/2.8, very robust. It was a wonderful camera for street shooting. When shooting with the R-D1 with the LCD backfliped, people usually think you are using an old camera and are always sympathetic or at least tolerant, while shooting with my 1DsMII has always been difficult.
Last, it was also a wonderful camera for social events along with the Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.8, and the R-D1 was, for its time, extremely good at high ISO with its Nikon CCD APS-C sensor (test here).
It could be fitted with very inexpensive Fuji batteries (the NP-80).

I began to use it less this summer when I bought a 450D as a second camera for hiking. If the 450D doesn't look as "solid" as the R-D1, it is lighter, and its 12MP has a clear edge over the old R-D1 6MPix.

It is indeed unfortunate that Epson took so long for marketing a successor to the R-D1 (the R-D1s was just a software upgrade), and that they have only fitted the new R-D1x with a 6MPix sensor. I am afraid it will be the last nail in the coffin of the R-D1 serie. But it looks however like they are not going to sell it in Europe.

Quote from: DarkPenguin
It has been what?  4, 5 years since the R-D1?  Their CEO's camera finally break?

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09022701...rangefinder.asp
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BernardLanguillier

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Epson R-D1x Rangefinder
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 09:00:44 pm »

Quote from: james_elliot
It is indeed unfortunate that Epson took so long for marketing a successor to the R-D1 (the R-D1s was just a software upgrade), and that they have only fitted the new R-D1x with a 6MPix sensor. I am afraid it will be the last nail in the coffin of the R-D1 serie. But it looks however like they are not going to sell it in Europe.

I don't know if 6 mp in itself is a problem. A 6mp FF sensor using the latest technology would be amazing. It could deliver totally clean 3200 ISO images...

The problem is that Epson is apparently using an off the shelf 4 years old APS design that must cost then a few tens of $ at most.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 09:55:07 pm »

When I saw this, I wondered why Epson didn't use the easily available 12.3 mp Sony sensor. At the time the original R-D1 came out, it used the 6mp sensor Sony was selling to everyone at the time - most famous in the Nikon D70 and a couple of other Nikons, it also made appearances in a bunch of Pentax and Minolta models. I'm surprised that they didn't use today's equivalent sensor (the 12.3) in the update, choosing instead to stick with a 6mp sensor that is now only found in the 2 year old $400 Nikon D40.

                                   -Dan
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Dale_Cotton2

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 09:15:59 am »

Quote from: Dan Wells
When I saw this, I wondered why Epson didn't use the easily available 12.3 mp Sony sensor. At the time the original R-D1 came out, it used the 6mp sensor Sony was selling to everyone at the time - most famous in the Nikon D70 and a couple of other Nikons, it also made appearances in a bunch of Pentax and Minolta models. I'm surprised that they didn't use today's equivalent sensor (the 12.3) in the update, choosing instead to stick with a 6mp sensor that is now only found in the 2 year old $400 Nikon D40.
Epson doesn't make the R-D1, Cosina does. That much is fact; what follows is sheer speculation:

Neither the Cosina web site or the Cosina Wikipedia entry give any evidence that Cosina has the immense engineering expertise in digital electronics to handle the supporting electronics to a sensor. If that's the case they might well have sub-contracted that out for the original RD-1 (perhaps to Sony?) and essentially bought the sensor and supporting circuitry as a plug-in module. If now they can't find any company to provide them with a higher-spec'd sensor module, or if the combination of Epson + Cosina can't afford or doesn't want to risk the bucks for such a module, that would be the end of the matter.

Perhaps the original RD-1 came about because of the personal desire for a dRF on the part of some very senior executive in Epson, who then approached Cosina as a (film) RF expert to see if they would be open to the project. At that time no one could actually be certain how well a dRF would fair in the market place. Now they've seen the level of interest from the RD-1 and M8, and can see just how niche a product category this is.

I have the sense that in Japan there are so many long-time camera hobbyists each with a collection of RF lenses that there is a modest market for a dRF to put those lenses to use with. Such enthusiasts are often far more interested in a camera as an end in itself than in the pictures it takes, so a 6 mp sensor might past muster.

The price tag issue would of course be exacerbated outside Japan by the yen's strength against many currencies.

BTW: I happen to agree with Bernard that the 6 mp count is not a show stopper, as a detail resolution issue, esp. given the handheld use a rangefinder normally gets. What's more disappointing to me is the limitation of 6 mp for colour (or tonal) resolution. I worked with a 6 mp, Sony sensor, camera for several years. When I have to work with those image files now, it's that slight lack of colour subtlety that chiefly disappoints. But even that's more an issue at low ISOs.
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JohnBrew

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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2009, 09:29:25 am »

Some thoughts on the re-issue of this camera body: 1) 6 mp is considered perfectly fine for b&w, which many of the shooters of "M" glass are high on, 2) I, for one, still miss having a manual lever advance on my M8, 3) the viewfinder is huge compared to the M8. How many M8 users have had to screw on a 1.25 viewfinder magnifier? 4) adding SDHC card capability is a good thing, 5) the price is a bit of a bother considering that used M8's are now less (than the projected price of the Epson) but compared to a new m8 is not such a bad deal, 6) someone out there still cares about 35mm rangefinders and that's a good thing, IMO.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 05:33:41 pm by JohnBrew »
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Rob C

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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 09:57:29 am »

I have no idea about the politics, but would it have been a reasonable idea for a new Epson RF camera to have tried to go for the Fuji system of sensor? It might have given them some marketing advantage due to the belief in FujiĀ“s better tonality etc....

Rob C

james_elliot

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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 10:38:08 am »

Quote from: Dale_Cotton2
Epson doesn't make the R-D1, Cosina does. That much is fact;
I am not that sure. When the original R-D1 was announced there were interviews with the persons in charge of the project at Epson, and some of them gave hints that Epson was doing at least part of the electronic of the R-D1. I don't know if this is true, but the R-D1 sensor had a different behavior  than its brother on the Nikon D70.

Quote from: Dale_Cotton2
What's more disappointing to me is the limitation of 6 mp for colour (or tonal) resolution. I worked with a 6 mp, Sony sensor, camera for several years. When I have to work with those image files now, it's that slight lack of colour subtlety that chiefly disappoints. But even that's more an issue at low ISOs.
As far as I know, there is no relationship between the spatial resolution and the tonal resolution of a sensor (?)
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Dale_Cotton2

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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 11:20:44 am »

Quote from: james_elliot
I am not that sure. When the original R-D1 was announced there were interviews with the persons in charge of the project at Epson, and some of them gave hints that Epson was doing at least part of the electronic of the R-D1. I don't know if this is true, but the R-D1 sensor had a different behavior  than its brother on the Nikon D70.
As far as I know, there is no relationship between the spatial resolution and the tonal resolution of a sensor (?)
I got that from TOP. I'd certainly think it likely that Epson had something to do with the colour handling of the output; and of course they'd want to play up their involvement in the design, given its their name on the camera. Epson has their names on three other digicams; so it's  at least cogitable they have or had a digital camera engineering team; but if so, it seems passing strange they've done nothing else since then.

Quote from: james_elliot
As far as I know, there is no relationship between the spatial resolution and the tonal resolution of a sensor (?)
The concept is: the more pixels, the more sampling per sq unit of subject area. This seems especially important given the averaging of the colour values of neighbouring pixels inherent in the Bayer pattern. I only became aware of this concept recently; perhaps I got it from reading the technical explanations of their testing process on the DXO website; and doubtless I've got it hopelessly muddled as usual. ;)
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schrodingerscat

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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 02:07:12 pm »

Quote from: Dale_Cotton2
I got that from TOP. I'd certainly think it likely that Epson had something to do with the colour handling of the output; and of course they'd want to play up their involvement in the design, given its their name on the camera. Epson has their names on three other digicams; so it's  at least cogitable they have or had a digital camera engineering team; but if so, it seems passing strange they've done nothing else since then.


The concept is: the more pixels, the more sampling per sq unit of subject area. This seems especially important given the averaging of the colour values of neighbouring pixels inherent in the Bayer pattern. I only became aware of this concept recently; perhaps I got it from reading the technical explanations of their testing process on the DXO website; and doubtless I've got it hopelessly muddled as usual.

The name on the product does not necessarily indicate any actual involvement in manufacture. Anyone can have their name slapped on a camera, lens, or accessory if the order is large enough. Most would be surprised as to who actually makes some of the big three products, especially point-and-shoots. If I remember the launch, it was indicated that Cosina was indeed building the RD-1. And as the sensor is paired with the processing hardware and firmware on the main board it wouldn't surprise me if Sony provided that as well. Historically, Cosina has had a rather lackluster reputation insofar as quality was concerned. About on a par with long departed Chinon. Their main thrust seems to be lenses these days, so hopefully their involvement with Zeiss and Voigtlander have prodded them to raise their QC.

Now if they cranked out a B&W version at a price-point that reflects their actual current production cost...
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james_elliot

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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 04:13:17 am »

Well I found the interview with Idao Edatsune, who was the father of the R-D1 at Epson. It is in french unfortunately:
http://www.zone-numerique.com/Test_40_Inte..._Epson_R-D1.htm
But I also found in my old files an article by John Boyd which describes the R-D1 technical conception. It is now on my website:
http://www.photo-lovers.org/pdf/epsonrd1.pdf
As you will notice, there is a shot of one chip on the IC board with an Epson label, and Epson indeed claims that they did the electronics for the sensor.
[attachment=11823:epson.jpg]
What is true in all this, I don't know...

JMA
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Dale_Cotton2

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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 06:41:44 am »

James: whoa! Excellent research. Blows my farming-out theory right out of the water. The EDIART chip is surely the image processor - Epson's version of Canon's DIGIC, Nikon's EXPEED, etc - and is obviously the pride and joy of the R-D1 project lead, Isao Edatsune:

"At Epson, we have developed the system for Epson EDIART Digital Image Artist (Please note that the middle name of the father of R-D1 is Eddie, one can also see this symbol[ism]: the art of Eddie). "

Since Epson can do sensor support, and presumably could buy a higher megapixel sensor, perhaps they just couldn't justify the cost of doing so, based on the sales of the R-1D. The most optimistic interpretation would be that they are working on, or planning on, an R-2D and the R-1Dx is just a stop-gap measure. We're used to the relentless pace of new compact and dSLR announcements from Japanese companies; but in the microcosm of dRF there is obviously no such pressure to stay in the lead or die. RF lovers can at least take heart from the fact that Epson didn't simply drop the R-D1 all together and that Cosina is still afloat despite the recession.
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