Topic: ONE in Thousand - H3D-39mp - experience (Read 3970 times)

rhsu · « **on:** February 11, 2009, 11:08:31 pm »

Hi Guys,

Just like to post my experience with H3D-39mp and whether ANY one has this problem with theirs?! I chose my words carefully as Denmark has been helpful and supportive. But my reluctance to post this is because of the people that I know and deal with back home in US/Canada (and adopted AU) are mostly Phase users (so human pride goes, a bit embarassed and my ears are very itchy... "I told you so!").

So perhaps the correct forum would be Hasselblad, but that is a narrow spectrum. I know neither forums are intended to be use to voice a negative opinion of a "subjective disgrunted" Hasselblad users, rather the intention is to help and find solutions to problems. But the issue I faced and still facing MUST be noted to potential buyers and may be and "JUST" may be, someone out there has the same problem. AND just may be and "may be", the problem just a "ONE in that thousands" odd.

Q: Has anyone come across a problem with using their Hasselblad 39mp with any "technical camera" (non-Hasselblad camera) with the standard flash-sync cable as a trigger and NOT tethered to the computer (PC or MAC) between the lens and the digital back producing a distorted and heavily discolouration magenta cast (not tint)?

I upgraded my V96c (numerous mole issues) to a H3D39mp because the former (notwithstanding the persisent mole issue) had produce marvelous results with my HR and Digitar lenses. I have given a DEMO H3D39mp prior to purchasing for testing on numerous occassions, both the Mark1 and the Mark2 H3D39mp and shot it with a loan Cambo WDS from the same distributor of Hasselblad AU. At the end of the day, those results were excellent BUT I couldn't afford the extra premium on the Mark 2 so opted with the brand new Mark 1 instead.

Of course, during the period of taking possession of the new H3D39mp, I had sold my Cambo (which some on you LL have benefitted from the mint conditions) and all my mint V-series collections and limited edtion 503 collections to fund the H3D39mp.

The DSLR was great until 4 months into use (300 activiation), the DCP board in the 39mp back had to be completely replaced. (That gig with my then client (now ex-client) was settled out of court.)

Then in Dec 2008, I acquired a Cambo WRS and that was when my 39mp was first put to use with a "technical camera" - non-Hasselblad camera. This was when I discovered at total discolouration magenta cast - no matter what settings on the 39mp was set on. I tested with other H3D39MPs, both Mk1 and Mk2, with various studioes and personal owners, and even the demo units with the distributor, and all worked fine with no discolouration - actually - perfect! - albeit why a deposit was made.

In conclusion, Hasselblad Denmark patiently listened to my issues (most grateful for that - and they did just that - great "support" - and surely fulfilled their supportive obligations) and although they managed to replicate the badly discolouration of the magenta cast, gave a technical report (subject to confidentiality) of why it is happening and offer a "band-aid" solution from a third party manufacturer. This solution has not being tested by Hasselblad to guarantee to resolve the problem - only in theory that it "should".

So, I am now waiting for my 39mp to return from Denmark where they are giving my back a full service, something thus gets rectified (without admitting liability or fault), and perhaps needing to fund this band-aid device to solve the problem. The saddest part of the whole ordeal, the demo units given to me during the two months prior to the deposit for the new unit did NOT alerted me to any potential issue with technical cameras.

If anyone has similar issue, PLEASE let me know.

;(

Dustbak · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:11:30 am »

It does look odd. In the other thread I mentioned a sync problem but this looks different. So, yes I have come across this phenomena with my CF39 and a Flexbody. This turned out to be a shutter release that needed CLA. Images were like yours only worse. Does your back exhibit the same problems on other view cameras?

Your back might just have been broken.

I don't know what you are warning people for? You might have received a broken back (might be something else). I totally agree that is absolutely annoying and a true PITA but things like that happen; unfortunately. Now it is up to Hasselblad to show how good their support actually is and sofar I have no indication that it is below what you should expect (going from what you are telling).

The DSP of my back went bust when it was only several months out of warranty which cost me 3K USD to repair. Real bummer but shit happens, now if it turns out to be a general defect with many backs due to bad fabrication, sure I will get back to Hasselblad. Sofar it is simply bad luck, really bad luck.

BTW, I would never agree to confidentiality on why something broke down. That sounds too much like a cover up. If a party is on the level that should not be necessary. I accept that electronic equipment (or any other equipment) can break down, unfortunate but a fact of life. Who is picking up the tab for the repair is the next question. This whole discussion should not take place concealed. If that was requested by Hasselblad, I find that part of support below par. All IMO naturally.

Good luck with getting your equipment up to a level that you might expect it to be!

rhsu · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:29:47 am »

Dustbak,

The shot was done on Cambo WRS w/ HR28mm. Change the lens to HR35mm, it still did the same thing. However, shot with Hasselbald loan back on the same "technical camera" (see image attached) w/ HR28mm - perfect! (PS: I deliberately push to the fringe of the image circle for someone in LL wanting to see the quality of the HR28mm lens).

(I also had a shot done with a demo unit via Cambo WDS (older version) before I put down a deposit for the purchase - the images produced then were ALL perfect!)

My 39mp is a H3D39mp (Mk1 with Mk2 internal upgrade ie firmware, and bits and pieces), not the actual new Mark 2 w/ large 3" LCD screen.

thanks for you reply.

Dustbak · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:56:05 am »

The 28HR, is definitely one of the greater temptations

It sounds indeed your back is faulty. If it is in Denmark it will get back to you working as it should. Hopefully that will be the last of your problems and hopefully you are one in a thousand.

David Grover / Capture One · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:35:11 pm »

Hi Richard,

As you mentioned my name on another thread I thought I should offer a response.

I have looked at the support case and I can see a number of things...

There is no technical / electrical difference between the H3DMk1 and H3DMk2 with regards to the operation with copal shutter / manual lenses. Therefore the error you are seeing can either be explained by..

1) A fault with your H3DMk1 or

2) A difference in settings on the respective H3D backs on the different occasions.

3) An issue with copal shutter lens (timing)

Your H3DMk1 was testing thoroughly in Copenhagen and no fault was found. Therefore we made three suggestions on how you could continue to work with your technical camera. None of them are a 'band aid' solution.

At this point it is not clear if you have tried the first simple solution, which was to change the setting on the copal lens to 'M' (if possible).

It was also reported that in the meta data of the sample image supplied that the exposure time was set to 30 seconds which raises the question if perhaps there was an error with the settings on your H3DMk1 in these conditions? Was the model set correctly under 'Camera' and was the exposure time set correctly?

We have yet to receive any information (as far as I can see - bear in mind it is Sunday night!) based on the above paragraph, so that is still an open question.

As a courtesy to you we have offered to re-calibrate the camera to the latest standard, adjust the mechanical locking mechanism and finally clean and check the IR filter.

The fact that you have had working demo cameras and friend's cameras leads me to think there was some error with the settings and/or lens between the systems.

Anyway, I hope when your system returns you can test the solutions, double check the settings and be on the road to enjoying the camera again. I hope it is simply a small piece of the puzzle that was overlooked.

Best Regards,

David Grover

Dustbak · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:55:03 pm »

Euhh... setting the right camera in the menu as well as the corresponding shutter speed was hopefully done before the back was send to Denmark? As well as testing with different, lens, shutter, cables, CF card, Tethered, etc..?

Anyway, from the sound of it a virtually spanking new back is coming home. Did the IR cleaning also mean replacement with the new & improved IR glass?

I have mentioned this several times in other threads but maybe I should do it again here. I have used various Hasselblad backs with all sorts of bodies, eg. Digiflex II, Miniwide, Truewide, Rollei X-Act (with electronic shutters), H, V, Cambo Wide, Flexbody. All without much trouble. Most problems I have encountered are so-called sync problems and sometimes sheer user stupidity (wrong settings, being careless or not paying attention). In 5 years of MFDB usage I only had a break down twice, unfortunately both last year. One of them my H body the other mentioned above. The Hasselblad CF backs I use lend themselves for a lot of tweaking but you have to pay attention, I still plan on using mine on a Zero Image pinhole

David Grover / Capture One · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2009, 01:59:26 pm »

Quote from: Dustbak

Euhh... setting the right camera in the menu as well as the corresponding shutter speed was hopefully done before the back was send to Denmark? As well as testing with different, lens, shutter, cables, CF card, Tethered, etc..?

Anyway, from the sound of it a virtually spanking new back is coming home. Did the IR cleaning also mean replacement with the new & improved IR glass?

I hope so too!

I am not sure if the IR filter was replaced as can't access the RMA database from home!

David

rhsu · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:40:55 pm »

David,

The fact that Denmark said they were "able to replicate" on technical camera (unless is was a typo - which I doubt), my conclusion is that if with NON-Hasselblad camera, and there is no fault, and such fault can be resolved = the unit is OKAY - NO FAULT - of course at my further expense to find this special device to correct the "issue" - notwithstanding I had a photography case settled out-of-court which you had the privilege of trying to resolve my corrupt files (I assumed you did) - which eventuated as a failed DCP board (total replacement) in my 39mp.

My reply here David, is to put people on notice and you may blame users for wrong settings, I am only willing to accept that to the degree that even testing the back to double sure myself of the claim raised with a Hasselblad rep here, still produced the pink. So the issue of wrong settings argument cannot be entertained - I can forward those images of the test to substantiate the problem with the back - but this is not the point. I know you are also helpful and like Denmark (no names here). But when Denmark said they can "replicate" the problem, and that NONE of the demo units and others that I have tested showed this problem NOR alerted to the special cable (which is part of the confidential report - which I purposely avoided - which you had shared in part - thus I am not in breach of that confidential terms) - thus opens more Pandora's boxes than in closes.

NB: Faulty back and "all other banks" were shot with same camera Cambo WRS w/ HR28mm - only MY back produced the pink. Hasselblad AU last week gave me a swap a Mk2 for a Mk1, because I complained too much still, and that Mk1 with HR28mm is fine. ALSO, Linos/Rodenstock just returned my HR35mm for servicing and no pink/magenta with when tested with owners and Hasselbald loan backs. So Copal shutter is ruled out.

The matter is between AU and us Hasselblad users/owners here as we are ALL very concerned and interested to see the outcome as the back is being returned. Like my last question to Denmark: why is it my back is the only one that I know of requires this special device to rectify the issue? A: Can't explain but just happens to be.

David, you may defend the name that feeds you but when the wheels "fall off" especially at the first fault only 4 months old and the support/service that came with purchasing the back from AU became disputed as to whether it was in "writing", this was the ultimate betrayal and insult - but fortunately enough, I had the then sale rep to forward me the details at the time of negotiation of this special support for AU purchases (instead of US import- where I'm from) - the price difference is at an extra cost of A$2,000!

Lets not mention V96c problems I have had with that back - 3 faults within ONE year - resulting in 2 location shoots images rendered un-useable. The 3rd was attempting resolution under warranty which expired 2 weeks from the 2 original warranty replairs. So what did I do? I used it as an upgrade because I couldn't sell it nor can I used it! Furthermore, I lost confidence with that V96c back. What did I now ended up? Poetic justice - you trade a lemon and you get a lemon! Isn't life funny!

My comment here and above is fair and defames no one nor Hasselblad. Just a clear hand declaration of "caveat emptore" (buyers beware).

Q: Will I buy/upgrade with Hasselblad in the future? A: - Probable stick with my Nikon more!

rhsu · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2009, 03:40:59 pm »

My back has returned from Denmark and something HAS been corrected 2nd time round. The noise has been dramatically suppressed and the overal magenta cast has been removed.

It now suffers the same magenta tint in "daylight" white balance (like all the 39s tested with - Mk1 and Mk2) BUT still produces the "cross-hatched" maze-like pattern liken to FIVE 39mp backs tested on two separate days - a timing issue which I will be testing them out with a "one-shot" cable from KaptureGroup.

HOWEVER, our testing opened a new can of worms - we tested against a Hasselblad 22mp and 50mp backs out of curiosity and discovered that the daylight white balance are PERFECT (on part with 3rd party backs that I tested ie Sinar 22mp and Phase 16mp) and FURTHERMORE, none of the said backs PRODUCED the "cross-hatched" maze-like pattern.

Denmark is getting back with that new can of worms we have just opened up as to why ONLY the 39s are producing those effects when used with technical cameras.

I will keep you posted with that "one-shot" cable solution.

rhsu · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2009, 04:58:53 pm »

Complete the testing by simulating a "one-shot" cable.

As per Denmark instructions when using on technical camera (ie Alpa, Cambo etc), when you activate the 39mp back FIRST with the Hasselblad release cable then release the lens shutter cable, the "cross-hatched" maze-like pattern disappears and the magenta for daylight white balance is further reduced. So liken of a Phase back, you need to wake up the back, but for the H3D39mp (Mk1 and Mk2), it's a timing lag issue. Instead of a "double action", you buy a "one-shot" cable for Hasselbald.

this therefore does NOT explain why the H2D-22mp and H3D50mp and the H2F-CF39mp do NOT have these problems?! I/we also tested several H3D39mps backs just to make sure. Daylight white balance returned a perfect reading and NO cross-hatched maze-like pattern.

I/We have yet to extensively test the H2F-CF39mp. Only one files/image had been submitted from a post elsewhere with no maze-like pattern and the other is as per posting thread. I like to see more of those with CF39mp (not H3D39mp) to test their shots with a technical camera and view at 400%. Usually, @ 200%-300%, you can already see "something" is wrong. Remember, the shutter release must be via manual and not electronic shutter control because these electronic controllers may have, as a default in design/program, to pre-activate the back first before release the lens shutter and ALSO the shutter speed is default to 1/60th (Schneider) and 1/125th (Rollie - I think?) - so with that low speed, much of the magenta should be suppressed.

When I (not we here) spoke to Alpa Switzerland, Silvestri again and Cambo, they knew nothing of this (not yet), only with Phase backs.

So for those needing to use their H3D39mp on "non-Hasselblad camera", be aware that you are either going to need it with an "one-shot" designed for 200 Hasselblad series cable from KaptureGroup or use the "double action" trigger. Once you jump over these hurdles, the H3D39mp files are great! - of course with a good lens in front!

So here's a free advertising for Hasselblad, get the H3D50mp (but just don't use a 32GB CF card)

Can Hasselblad fix the timing issue just for the H3D39mp? This is what you call the famoust "Ford Pinto case" (for those in my age bracket would know what I am talking about!)

PS: The magenta overcast (not tint) has been eliminated and the noise in my problematic back has also been dramatically suppressed and is now on par to the rest of the H3D39s out there. Thank you!

Good luck!

Author Topic: ONE in Thousand - H3D-39mp - experience (Read 3970 times)