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CharlesC

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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2009, 01:27:00 pm »

I just wanted to share my experiences that resulted in a MkII failure (non-permanent...knock on wood) on the same trip:
  • I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag.
  • I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship.  I did not change lenses while on-land.
  • My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.
  • Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).
  • It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case.
  • Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd).  I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.
  • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.

I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air
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neile

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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2009, 01:36:41 pm »

Quote from: harlemshooter
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?

I was one of those users. The 5DMkII was my primary shooting body for the trip and did not experience any issues. I used it in the same weather conditions as everyone else, and at times did not have my rain cover because I forgot it and resorted to using the hood off my Quark parka in an attempt to keep things dry. (No, I didn't have a vertical grip)

Neil
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ADA71

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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2009, 09:05:25 pm »

So this means that the camera is not efficiently sealed around the release button and the click wheel next to it (I am sure that the wheel is the most difficult area to seal). Salt creeps are very different from just rain water. Water will evaporate but salt water will leave the salt behind and will attract humidity and then creep further into the camera. Salt creeps have a different viscosity (like oil) and will get everywhere, that is why Canon wants to end warranty because the camera will come back.

I would not take the repaired camera back.

The described symptoms clearly mean that you had salt at work. The rain/high humidity just exacerbated things. On the seas there are always enough salt water droplets/mist in the air around to create as smeary salty film on everything.

In the 80's we would just open bottom plates and top covers of F1s to dry and lubricate everything after sailing travels. I guess you can't do that anymore. I wonder if anyone has taken apart a 5D MK2 or if anyone has a repair manual so that one could evaluate if there is indeed any kind of seal at the release and top wheel? I doubt that there is anything special.


 
Quote from: mrenters
As you've probably heard there were a number of 5D mk II cameras that failed on the Antarctic trip (6 of the 26 on the trip or 23%).  My wife and I accounted for 2 of those.  Both failed within minutes of each other during a shore outing with light rain.  Both were protected by Kata rain covers and both exhibited the same problem - the shutter release button appeared to be shorted out.  When the camera was turned on it would immediately take a picture (or multiple if the camera was in continuous shooting mode). At least some of the other failures on the trip were similar.

When we got back to the ship we dried them out and they eventually (mostly) revived.  My wife's acted up again as soon as it was even slightly humid and stopped working altogether in Buenos Aires at +35C, humid but sunny weather.

For a camera that is advertised as having "improved weather resistance" I can't say I'm impressed, and I'm even less so knowing that no other cameras had problems even though many of them were completely unprotected.

Both cameras were sent to Canon for repair and I received a call today saying there was corrosion at or near the shutter release and offering me the following options:

1) Have them fixed as best they could (free of charge) but without further warranty in case of internal failure
2) Trade them for new cameras at 50% off the retail price

I'm not convinced that this camera doesn't have serious problems with moisture compared to similar cameras from other manufacturers and I'm also not convinced I can trust the camera to work in anything other than warm dry air.

I like the camera otherwise and the images it produces are great, but if you can't rely on it, I don't know how useful it is. Make sure you carry a backup if there is any chance there could be moisture. I don't know if I'd buy it again given our experience.

Martin
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giles

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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2009, 10:33:56 pm »

Quote from: harlemshooter
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?
I had no problems.  I didn't use a rain cover; when there was rain about I used a towel to protect the camera.  Upon returning to the ship I almost always left the camera in my camera bag for an hour or two.  I managed not to change lenses on those shore excursions when there was rain; nor did I change lenses on the zodiac cruises.  Otherwise, it was business as usual -- I took several thousand frames (less than some of you, I know!).

I'm rather startled by the number of failures we saw: Canon made quite a point at the local 5D II launch that the weather sealing was "improved" over the 5D, although not up to 1 series level.  Part of my surprise is that the fairly numerous 40Ds, 50Ds, etc didn't appear to have the same number of problems.  I don't know if anyone took a count, but many of us who had a 5D II had a second Canon body of some sort along too.

How statistically significant the failures we saw are I don't know, but 20+ percent is suggestive of a problem. :-(

Giles
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2009, 01:02:07 am »

Hi!

One trick I often do is that when I'm shooting in cold I remove the memory card before going inside. I don't ever put the camera in a sealed bag, but simple keep it in my backpack all zipped up. Never had problems, except once when I was walking in heavy rain without raincower and eveything got soaking wet. Focusing was stuck mechanically on my 80-200/2.8 APO after having it soaking wet and the batteries were exhausted after very short. I could exercise the 80-200/2.8 back to working order and it still works just fine, I hade it around 20 years. I guess I have been lucky.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: CharlesC
I just wanted to share my experiences that resulted in a MkII failure (non-permanent...knock on wood) on the same trip:
  • I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag.
  • I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship.  I did not change lenses while on-land.
  • My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.
  • Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).
  • It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case.
  • Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd).  I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.
  • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.

I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air
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john2

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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2009, 02:19:07 am »

I note that the corrosion reported by Canon occurred around the release button. I do a lot of outdoor photography, often near the sea - in response to this report I have stuck a piece of black duck tape over the release button. The button still operates perfectly - do other people think that this is a sensible approach to the problem?
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atassy

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« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2009, 08:22:50 am »

Quote from: john2
I note that the corrosion reported by Canon occurred around the release button. I do a lot of outdoor photography, often near the sea - in response to this report I have stuck a piece of black duck tape over the release button. The button still operates perfectly - do other people think that this is a sensible approach to the problem?

if it works for you i think it could indeed give some additional protection. but i'd definitely take it off when back inside so that any moisture that may have gotten in, can dry off and doesn't get trapped inside by the tape.
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citytrader

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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2009, 11:31:57 am »

Hello!, could be possible to post the 5DMKII pictures of the trip!?...

Regards!
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JohnKoerner

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canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2009, 01:28:51 pm »

Quote from: CharlesC
  • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.
I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air


I suppose it goes back to the old saying, "When all else fails, follow the instructions."  

I think what Canon is essentially doing is letting people know where the extra money is going in the 1Ds. There is a huge difference between the wording "improved weather sealing" and "weatherPROOF." I know, for example, in wristwatches if you buy a watch that says "weather resistant," don't think you can go scuba diving with it. If you do, it will fail. You have to buy a waterproof watch if you want to go diving.

If Canon says you must put your camera in a bag, and allow it to acclimate, before bringing it into a new drastic environment ... and a person doesn't do this ... then I can't see how they're liable in a warranty situation. The person who doesn't follow the instructions simply becomes the author of their own misfortune.

I would suspect that the 5DMkII is designed mostly for high-quality portraits in a calm environment, but that their 1Ds remains their "take anywhere" high-res safari camera. And the extra money goes to the extra durability. That the 50D didn't experience any probs is indicative it too is kind of a "all-use" budget camera. I think the 5DMkII is designed to give you super image quality economically, but also without the same protection or "all use" function either.

That is how I perceive things at any rate ...





.
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mbrost

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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2009, 02:48:51 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
I would suspect that the 5DMkII is designed mostly for high-quality portraits in a calm environment, but that their 1Ds remains their "take anywhere" high-res safari camera. And the extra money goes to the extra durability. That the 50D didn't experience any probs is indicative it too is kind of a "all-use" budget camera. I think the 5DMkII is designed to give you super image quality economically, but also without the same protection or "all use" function either.

Not to argue, but take a look at the 2007 report, 1Ds cameras had just as bad of a time, maybe statistically worse: 2007

So, maybe it is Canon thing and not just spending enough money      Since that report, I have not seen a whole lot of reports that the 1Ds Mark II had major issues in any weather conditions.  It is curious that the xxD line has not been identified as an issue, wonder what design points figure into that?

I hope Canon does the right thing here and does a recall when they find the issue.  The bad news is that it may take a lot of failures to identify what is actually causing the problem, and it is no fun to be the one who 'helps' identify a issue.
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pss

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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2009, 03:27:14 pm »

i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....
well...that is why canon makes the dsIII...for those conditions....just because other cameras DID NOT fail does not mean that there is something wrong with ALL 5DIIs.....this is so far from a recall or even an issue! banding, blackdots under all conditions, occuring with 10000s of bodies is a recall or an issue....10 out of 30 5DIIs failing in ANTARTICA seems to fall in the "i could have told you" category....
no offence, and i totally understand if some people draw the conclusion that nikon and sony might have better weather sealing...that might be the case....but again until 5DIIs start to fail in london, chicago, tokyo and pretty much anywhere else in the world other then ANTARTICA...and fail at a certain % due to faulty weather sealing.....

just because my camera hold up well when i take a couple of snaps on the beach does not mean i should feel confident to take this camera on a trip through northern africa....i mean i could but i really should not be surprised if it dies....

there is a camera that gives us more then we could have dreamed of in just about every aspect and throws in incredible HD capablities for a REALLY good price.....and some people complain that it does not hold up in antartica....wow, i guess you really can't make everybody happy....
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mrenters

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« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2009, 04:05:37 pm »

Quote from: pss
i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....
well...that is why canon makes the dsIII...for those conditions....just because other cameras DID NOT fail does not mean that there is something wrong with ALL 5DIIs....

I'm surprised to hear that temperatures just above freezing (it did rain and not snow) are somehow worse than conditions in most places on the planet.  I know Antarctica sounds exotic and you probably have images of penguins freezing in -60C temperatures with the wind and snow howling around them in your head.  The fact of the matter is that it was far colder at home in southern Canada (-30C) during the time we were on the trip.  I guess that makes anything but a 1 series camera unsuitable for outdoor work in Canada for 4-5 months of the year.

As for the rain, you're right, it doesn't rain in most places on the planet.

I'm not saying the problem affects ALL 5DIIs, but I am saying I own two of them with serial numbers two apart that broke in conditions that really weren't anything extreme or anything I would have expected a failure in. I didn't take it swimming in the ocean or anything. Perhaps there was a problem with an early batch (I received mine in mid-December). I've been taking pictures with a variety of cameras for over 35 years and haven't had any previous problems with cameras failing.

As for the 1 series bodies, if you look back at what failed during the 2007 trip, you'll find that a number of those bullet proof 1DsIIs failed.  Ooops.  I guess they weren't designed for those "extreme" conditions either.

I like the 5DII otherwise - the images that come out of it are great, the video feature is wonderful, etc.  It just wasn't reliable for us on this trip and I'm glad I had a backup camera.

Martin



 
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harlemshooter

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canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2009, 04:44:31 pm »

strange troubles, brother.  hope canon fixes your camera.  


Quote from: mrenters
I'm surprised to hear that temperatures just above freezing (it did rain and not snow) are somehow worse than conditions in most places on the planet.  I know Antarctica sounds exotic and you probably have images of penguins freezing in -60C temperatures with the wind and snow howling around them in your head.  The fact of the matter is that it was far colder at home in southern Canada (-30C) during the time we were on the trip.  I guess that makes anything but a 1 series camera unsuitable for outdoor work in Canada for 4-5 months of the year.

As for the rain, you're right, it doesn't rain in most places on the planet.

I'm not saying the problem affects ALL 5DIIs, but I am saying I own two of them with serial numbers two apart that broke in conditions that really weren't anything extreme or anything I would have expected a failure in. I didn't take it swimming in the ocean or anything. Perhaps there was a problem with an early batch (I received mine in mid-December). I've been taking pictures with a variety of cameras for over 35 years and haven't had any previous problems with cameras failing.

As for the 1 series bodies, if you look back at what failed during the 2007 trip, you'll find that a number of those bullet proof 1DsIIs failed.  Ooops.  I guess they weren't designed for those "extreme" conditions either.

I like the 5DII otherwise - the images that come out of it are great, the video feature is wonderful, etc.  It just wasn't reliable for us on this trip and I'm glad I had a backup camera.

Martin
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 04:52:27 pm by harlemshooter »
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Rory

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« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2009, 04:46:25 pm »

I was wondering if salty fingers could be the culprit.  I know when traveling in small boats it is almost impossible to keep your hands dry.  This does not explain why the cannons failed, other than they could be more susceptible to "salty finger" syndrome.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2009, 04:52:50 pm »

I guess my problem is it just doesn't sound very difficult to design a shutter release system where the contacts themselves are sealed well enough that salt can't get to them (or water for that matter).

But I'll admit I'm no engineer.  This high of a failure rate doesn't inspire confidence in Canon bodies.

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chrisgibbs

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« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2009, 05:13:53 pm »

Quote
Giles wrote: Upon returning to the ship I almost always left the camera in my camera bag for an hour or two

Great point Giles, that's about all you really need to do here!  These camera covers and ziplock bags *can have the reverse* of the intended effect and actually *keep your kit damp*.

Taking a closed camera bag (it's a padded moisture permeable cooler bag really) inside is a great way to acclimatize your kit - as you noted, also great when you're in and out of a warm vehicle too.

Sounds as if the D700 users ***inadvertently*** had a better approach here!  By not trying to baby their kit, getting it a little damp then toweling it off and throwing it back in the bag, they may have actually employed a better system.

As for using hair-driers and blowing warm air into all those *unsealed cold parts* that sounds a little risky!

Anyway, great topic and food for thought.................

Cheers,
Chris Gibbs
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neile

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« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2009, 06:02:06 pm »

Quote from: pss
i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....

The conditions while we were in Antarctica were far nicer than:

1) The conditions I left behind in Seattle (-10C, 16 inches of snow on the ground)
2) The conditions in Manitoba when I was home for Christmas (regularly -30C without wind)

There were several times when I enjoyed the weather on the deck of the ship in just a t-shirt and jeans. The water we did encounter as rain on the days we had the camera failures was equivalent to normal Seattle drizzling.

Neil
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harlemshooter

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canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2009, 06:20:27 pm »

Quote from: neile
The conditions while we were in Antarctica were far nicer than:

1) The conditions I left behind in Seattle (-10C, 16 inches of snow on the ground)
2) The conditions in Manitoba when I was home for Christmas (regularly -30C without wind)

There were several times when I enjoyed the weather on the deck of the ship in just a t-shirt and jeans. The water we did encounter as rain on the days we had the camera failures was equivalent to normal Seattle drizzling.

Neil
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:31:54 am by harlemshooter »
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Paulo Bizarro

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« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2009, 01:03:29 am »

I suppose we will never know what the exact reason of these failures was. It is certainly frustrating to have camera failures in any trip, let alone in a a trip like this, to such a wonderful place. Personally, whenever I move between two different environments in terms of humidity and/or temperature, I try to avoid condensation by letting the camera adjust to the different condition.

For instance, I once went to Moscow in the winter with the old EOS 30V (not much weather proofing on that one...), and I used it under very low temperatures. Whenever I had to go from outside to inside, I would put the camera in my bag, and let it warm up inside the bag for at least one hour.

When I have to go from air-con to hot and humid outside, I try to leave the camera outside, inside the bag, for 1 to 2 hours, so that it can warm up, and avoid condensation.

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« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2009, 10:04:52 am »

I took my 5D2 out for its first test in pretty cold conditions in the foothills of the Carneddau 'mountains' here in North Wales. It was sub-zero and very windy. I had to scrape snow off the top of the camera and it worked happily enough despite having to have snow scraped off the top twice. I did get frozen though, and had to walk back down in near blizzard conditions.

[attachment=11429:_MG_8255.jpg]
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:16:08 am by Paul Kay »
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