Stitching panoramic images in PS4

[Brammers]

Hi all,

Firstly apologies if this is in the wrong place - it seemed the most suitable...

I used to use an image stitching application called Serif Panoramaplus 3.  I love this - it's always produced really good stitches, it does a great job of equalising exposures and movement across frames and it can import in DNG and export in TIFF.  It doesn't provide all that much manual control, but to be honest I've never needed it!

Unfortunately since I've got myself an a900 I'm running into a lot of 'out of memory' errors when exporting.  It'll stitch files just fine, but when it comes to exporting the panorama at full size it'll give up at anything over about 8000 pixels on the long end.  This is a bit of a problem when my latest stitch is 44,000...  I'm not sure why it's doing this - I've got 4gb RAM and watching performance monitor neither this, nor the cache file ever even get close to being used up.  I guess it's just not optimal programming - a real shame.

In the meantime I've started playing with LR2 and PS4 and the 'merge to panorama' option.  I'm finding it pretty awful - so bad in fact that I'm convinced that it can't be this bad and that it must be my fault.  Here's a few samples of 'stitched' shots - personally I'd call these more 'overlaid':











The last one's pretty laughable - while those black lines are only a pixel or two wide at 100% view, resize down to a forum-viewable resolution and the extent of the problem becomes pretty clear.

I've had a good play with the various options, turning merging on and off, vignetting control, the different alignment options...  The shots themselves aren't perfect - notably they're not adjusted for parralax errors (using panoramaplus I've never had to!) but they're exposure, focus and WB locked and the difference in exposure is down to things like the aperture blade stop-down not being totally uniform from frame to frame - surely close enough?

Any assistance greatfully received.

Adam

[BernardLanguillier]

Any assistance greatfully received.

I'll let those using PS CS4 for stitching purpose answer to your question itself.

As far as I am concerned, I have always found Autopano Pro and PTgui to be much better options for serious stitching.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Brammers]

I'll let those using PS CS4 for stitching purpose answer to your question itself.

As far as I am concerned, I have always found Autopano Pro and PTgui to be much better options for serious stitching.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeah, that sounds like the way to go at the moment - my stitcher of choice being Panoramaplus and with that no longer doing the job I'll have to look at other options.  But seeing as I already have PS4 it's worth a crack before I splash out.  The examples I've posted above...  They're shocking - do you agree?

[BernardLanguillier]

The examples I've posted above...  They're shocking - do you agree?

Yes, they are, I don't think that it is representative of the best PS4 can do, but again I have only very limited experience with its stitching capability.

Some people seem to be real fans of - if not the wraping - at least the blending engine, and that it precisely where you are experiencing issues. So it is surprising.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Farmer]

Adam I'm surprised by the results.

I've used CS3 in the past and now CS4 for quite a lot of stitches with very few issues.  This includes one with 15 shots.  What really confuses me is the perfectly straight lines you're seeing - this is not at all typical of the way CS4 stitches.

I do them all directly from CS4 and not via LR, but that shouldn't be an issue.

Workflow is:

File > Automate > Photomerge

Choose "auto" and tick "Blend Images Together".  Vignette removal and Geometric Distortion Correction are optional.

The typical stitch when viewed in layers shows stitch lines that are anything but straight.

I do at times have issues and some manual adjustment helps.  Here's just one recent example that of a 5 shot stitch in portrait orientation (A700, tripod, Manfrotto pano head and levelling plate, 50mm f/1.4 lens, cable release, MLU, 30 second exposures in case any of it is important) - done from DNGs.



Merits of the image or otherwise aside, I don't see any stitching issues.

Having said all this, a colleague and I have been using PTGui beta and decided to purchase it for an improved workflow and results so I have to agree with others that PTGui is an excellent choice and offers many more features.  However, CS4 shouldn't be giving the results you're seeing.

Can you post your exact workflow?

[Brammers]

Farmer - I'm also very suprised, which is why I'm pretty sure it's my fault!

Let's go through the workflow.

Firstly I'll take the images.  Occasionally hand-held, but mostly tripod mounted on a standard ball-head, can be either portrait or landscape orientation.  I'll do my best to make sure the head is level with a spirit level on the hotshoe.

The focus point, exposure and white balance will all be locked.  Shots taken with 2second mirror lockup, tripod re-locked with each shot.

I'll then import the RAW shots into Lightroom 2.  The only change I make here is to set a whitebalance for the whole series - generally daylight.  

I then select the group, right click and choose 'edit in -> merge to panorama in photoshop.'

This opens the shots in PS4.  I get the following screen:



In here none of the options seem to make very much difference.  I've tried with 'blend images together' both on and off, and I've tried all of the layout settings that seem applicable.  I've just used 2 files for that shot, but I get similarly bad results however many I use, from simple 3 shot panos all the way through to 10-12 shots.  

Your pano looks just fine...  Pretty similar to what I'd expect from my Serif software.  Look forwards to your suggestions.

[Brammers]

Oh - and on the off chance that it's something to do with the lens.  I mostly use the Zeiss 135 for stitched shots, but I've also tried with the Zeiss 24-70.  Apertures are generally pretty small - f8-f11.

[Brammers]

Finally, here's one more.  Awful attempt at a pano, but it really shows how PS isn't merging the shots at all - it's just sticking them on top of each other.  What option have I set wrong?  Do I need a patch or something?

[Farmer]

At this point, I have no idea   I'll think about and come back, though.

In the meantime, want to try doing it without LR?  Just do it from CS4 as per my workflow above?

If you want to set WB and what not, open the images in ACR and do so.  Even though I work from my DNG copies (keeping my actual raws in a different directory and untouched) I have worked directly with raws before and no issue, so I don't see that as being an issue, but I keep wondering if some setting in LR is affecting things?

As for patches, there are no dot releases to PS CS4, although for the suite there have been a few updates so do make sure you've checked for updates (although having said that, I haven't had a problem with CS4 even prior to any of the suite updates being released).

And, yeah, I don't think it's the lenses or the apertures (my example above were at f/10 for example) - and I've done plenty of stitches with hand held with excellent results - you just typically have more pixel loss top and bottom due to distortion correction and alignment issues.

So yeah, maybe try my workflow outside of LR and I'll fire up LR and see if I can replicate your issues!

BTW, I'm using 64 bit versions of both on Vista 64 - but have used it on Macs at work with same results (and it's 32 bit on the Macs obviously).

[rcdurston]

Finally, here's one more.  Awful attempt at a pano, but it really shows how PS isn't merging the shots at all - it's just sticking them on top of each other.  What option have I set wrong?  Do I need a patch or something?

At this point with the image in PS and looking like it hasn't blended the layers yet, select all the layers in the layers palette then EDIT>AUTO BLEND LAYERS.
That should be that.
It just looks like you are "aligning" the images and nothing else.

Also if you are using LR and finding your final image is way too big and taking to long to process, you can use this option.
1. In LR select your images for the pan.
2. PHOTO>OPEN AS LAYERS IN PS
3. In PS now you can resize the file to give you your final vertical dimensions (for a horizontal pan) or horizontal dimensions (for a vertical pan)
4. Select all the layers in the layers palette
5. EDIT>AUTO ALIGN LAYERS, select your choice of projection and lense correction
5. EDIT>AUTO BLEND LAYERS, select your panorama and seamless tones and colours

done
its a way faster method than having it chug away on a file that you are going to probably downsize anyways



r

[Farmer]

Just tried your LR workflow and can't replicate the problem

See if I can think of anything useful overnight :-)  (or someone smarter than me will come along and solve it for you!)

[NikoJorj]

I'll then import the RAW shots into Lightroom 2.  The only change I make here is to set a whitebalance for the whole series - generally daylight.  

I then select the group, right click and choose 'edit in -> merge to panorama in photoshop.'

This opens the shots in PS4.  I get the following screen:

In here none of the options seem to make very much difference.

For me too, it seems that PS tries but doesn't manage to auto-blend the frames... Could it be the too long filename?

I used PS's Automerge feature for a while, and even if it's not perfect (no choice for the horizon eg) it had never done such a bad job as in your examples.
Otherwise, I use Hugin - the last version is quite good.

[petermacc]

For me too, it seems that PS tries but doesn't manage to auto-blend the frames... Could it be the too long filename?

I used PS's Automerge feature for a while, and even if it's not perfect (no choice for the horizon eg) it had never done such a bad job as in your examples.
Otherwise, I use Hugin - the last version is quite good.

Adam,

If you would like to send me the files I would try it on my computer see if it is something that is just your pc or the program itself.

Peter

[Wim van Velzen]

I ran exactly into the same problem; for some panoramas I returned to CS3 which I preferred to PTgui. On other occasions CS4 worked flawlessly. Strange; I could find no reasons or patterns in successrate. I suppose it is a bug that will be solved....

[OldRoy]

I ran exactly into the same problem; for some panoramas I returned to CS3 which I preferred to PTgui. On other occasions CS4 worked flawlessly. Strange; I could find no reasons or patterns in successrate. I suppose it is a bug that will be solved....

I'm quite astonished that CS3 can generate stitched panoramas that PTGui can't! I've only been doing panos for about 18 months but this is the absolute reverse of my own experience. I'd rate CS3 as pretty lousy for panos in both stitching and blending aspects! I've been concentrating on HDR interior VR panoramas which are quite a challenge (to me anyway) and PTGui works beautifully if you input useable data and manipulate it correctly. Not the easiest of programs to use but for cylindrical or rectilinear panoramas it's relatively easy to get good results. The blending code is excellent although some people prefer to use it in combination with the Smartblend plugin.

For anyone serious about panoramas PTGui is very good value indeed. I use the slightly more expensive "Pro" version which has some functionality that many users won't need. I'd say if it can't be stitched in PTGui it probably can't be stitched at all.

For general help and information on panoramas I'd recommend the panoguide.com website forums.
Roy

[BernardLanguillier]

I'd say if it can't be stitched in PTGui it probably can't be stitched at all.

I would have to disagree with that, Autopano Pro can handle beautifully many cases that PTgui won't do.

PTgui remains my default pano application, but APP is significantly better in quite a few cases and shouldn't be ignored by anyone serious about pano work.  The version 2 is to be released soon and will further push the enveloppe in various ways.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Brammers]

Hi guys.

I live without internet in my flat at the moment, so I've not had chance to try the options you've suggested.  However I did find one thing out doing my own research - PS4 merges just fine using JPGs but not using RAWs.  Here's a couple of examples:





The good one is jpg, the bad one RAW - otherwise exactly the same workflow.

Any repsonse to that?  I'll have a crack at your other suggestions shortly.

[Farmer]

Hi guys.

I live without internet in my flat at the moment, so I've not had chance to try the options you've suggested.  However I did find one thing out doing my own research - PS4 merges just fine using JPGs but not using RAWs.  Here's a couple of examples:

The good one is jpg, the bad one RAW - otherwise exactly the same workflow.

Any repsonse to that?  I'll have a crack at your other suggestions shortly.

Some processing setting you have in LR or ACR that is doing it?  I really don't know   Once you've tested alternative workflows, we can perhaps start to narrow down where the problems occurs.