Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Nikon on Crack  (Read 46979 times)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2008, 03:28:56 am »

Quote from: ziocan
At 100/200 iso there is no noise on Alpha files, at least those taken by me. it actually has "less" noise than the 1ds3 at those iso on my tests and also other tests I have seen. which means no noise. ZERO.

So far the d3x samples I have seen at 100/400iso do not make ANY significant difference. They may not be even be slightly better, if shots with some primes and compared to primes taken with Sony Zeiss.  Sony and Zeiss lenses got better coating and also circular blades on all lenses. They will give a slight advantage to Sony at 100/400 iso most of the times. Not all the times but most.
wait and see.

Where there could be a significant difference in favour of the d3x at low ISO is in DR, smoothness of tonal transitions and detail.

Cheers,
Bernard

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2008, 03:53:28 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Where there could be a significant difference in favour of the d3x at low ISO is in DR, smoothness of tonal transitions and detail.

Cheers,
Bernard
Maybe, but it could be negated by the lenses.
I have been shooting with the two zeiss primes for almost a year by now, (20 years of Nikon and 5 years of canon as well, not mentioning hassy and mamiya), the nikon primes do not have certain characteristics of the zeiss. It is too complicate to explain and even showing examples would be a daunting task. Only using the equipment several times on several condition with different bodies convinced me of that. that is enough for me.
where the d3x could have an advantage in DR and transitions (eventually), it could be made up by the Zeiss lenses on the other body. The CZ are on another planet compared to anything that Zeiss made for hasselblad, contax and all the manual focus that are unloading for the other makes. The CZ have been redesigned (even if on the same base) from scratch.
Sometimes you can see the difference immediately, sometime it takes few images on different lighting, but the difference will come to your eyes. It s mostly the micro-contrast on the mid range that make the difference. Something that cannot be achieved in post without screwing other tones on the image.
if you ever shot some film with nikon next to the Hasselblad or Rolley, you may know what I mean. it is not at the same extent, because the larger format gave some advantages, but that difference still carried on, on these lenses.
It does not have anything to do with sharpness.

By the way some of the beauty and portrait images from the D3x, has still the problem of the green tinge on skin shadows transition and magenta green shifts on gray backgrounds with gradients which was plaguing the kodaks. It is not at the same extent, it is actually almost invisible, but it is there. look at the girl with the pearl chin and some of the shots of the black girl with the horse on the beach. look at the sand.
With the Kodaks the problem came from the lenses that had the rear glass very narrow. you can mostly see it with the photos made with the 60mm micro which was unusable on the kodaks.
i'm still surprised that some of the Nikon experts did not catch this problem yet.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 04:04:52 am by ziocan »
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2008, 12:17:53 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
Well, it seems like we're comparing Apples to Nikons
Shame Orange don't sell the iPhone then, as many people regard their service as more akin to that of a lemon.  
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

JohnKoerner

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2008, 01:41:31 pm »

Quote from: jjj
Shame Orange don't sell the iPhone then, as many people regard their service as more akin to that of a lemon.  


But you see that is where I don't think the Apples to Nikons comparison is valid.

The Nikon D300 is 140% of the price of the Canon 50D, and to justify the price there is the superior build, better weather sealing, longer shutter life (150%), and other user-friendly features that have been recited many times. They are not offering a lemon for a higher price, they are offering a better-built camera. And while the Canon can match or surpass it in some areas, it falls shorter in others, and ultimately is a cheaper-made camera.

I believe the same philosophy is in back of the D3x vs. 1DsMkIII, Nikon is not trying to sell a lemon for a higher price, but what they feel is a camera in the same class, only nicer and with some advantages. Why should they charge the exact same price for a camera they feel is better and offers distinct advantages.

Sure, it would be nice if BMW sold their M5 series automobile for the same price as a Toyota Avalon, but the M5 is a nicer car and so they charge more for it. Yes, both can get you from point A to point Z, but not in the same level of class or comfort. There are many rich guys who can afford a BMW but don't get one, but there are plenty who can and who do.

I simply do not think it is unreasonable for Nikon to offer a camera that eclipses the 1DsMkIII in some critical areas, and matches it in its own forte, and to charge 120% of the price for the added margin of benefit. It would be unreasonable of the Sony A900 to be at that price, and not really equal the others in value, and so what makes the Sony such a bargain is to match these cameras in "some" ways, and to be so cheap.

But as with autos, when you match the best there is in ALL ways, and eclipse the comp in several unique ways, you are simply going to charge more for your product. That is just the way the world turns ...

Jack




.
Logged

Slough

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #84 on: December 10, 2008, 03:22:53 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
I believe the same philosophy is in back of the D3x vs. 1DsMkIII, Nikon is not trying to sell a lemon for a higher price, but what they feel is a camera in the same class, only nicer and with some advantages. Why should they charge the exact same price for a camera they feel is better and offers distinct advantages.

I think that is the point. Nikon are competing with the 1Ds3, and since the camera is new, it will be priced high to start, as was the 1Ds3. Give it a while and it will be at the same price.

The D3x provides a pro grade build and features unlike the Canon 5D2. But most amateurs and many pros want a Nikon equivalent of the 5D2 as they want the high res sensor, not the other pro features, and not the price.
Logged

Plekto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 551
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #85 on: December 10, 2008, 05:18:20 pm »

Quote from: Dan Wells
What are the MF makers to do? They have a $15,000 product that competes with products in the $4000-$6500 range, and a $25,000 product that has unique image quality, but it takes a 44 inch print to see it.

My point is that there are a couple of makers that don't HAVE a DB yet.  I suspect them to get into the game by basically using their existing technology with a bit of tweaking and ramming the thing into the market for $5K or so.  I can see Fuji, Sony, or Sigma doing this quite easily.  And in the case of Sigma, it's almost guaranteed that they are eying the DB market with glee.  And they're the long-standing kings of discount lenses and beating the other guys at the same game.
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #86 on: December 10, 2008, 06:48:40 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
My point is that there are a couple of makers that don't HAVE a DB yet.  I suspect them to get into the game by basically using their existing technology with a bit of tweaking and ramming the thing into the market for $5K or so.  I can see Fuji, Sony, or Sigma doing this quite easily.  And in the case of Sigma, it's almost guaranteed that they are eying the DB market with glee.  And they're the long-standing kings of discount lenses and beating the other guys at the same game.
I'd love that, but where are the lenses?
Logged

Plekto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 551
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #87 on: December 10, 2008, 07:58:22 pm »

Sigma's been making lenses forever.  They are fairly new at cameras, but everything they do seems to have a philosophy of lower prices than the competition if they feel the need to gain market share.  

Fuji has the technology as well and just needs to get of of their rear end and make one.  Sony, well, they are apparently serious about lower prices for the quality.
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2008, 08:18:31 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
But you see that is where I don't think the Apples to Nikons comparison is valid.

The Nikon D300 is 140% of the price of the Canon 50D, and to justify the price there is the superior build, better weather sealing, longer shutter life (150%), and other user-friendly features that have been recited many times. They are not offering a lemon for a higher price, they are offering a better-built camera. And while the Canon can match or surpass it in some areas, it falls shorter in others, and ultimately is a cheaper-made camera.

I believe the same philosophy is in back of the D3x vs. 1DsMkIII, Nikon is not trying to sell a lemon for a higher price, but what they feel is a camera in the same class, only nicer and with some advantages. Why should they charge the exact same price for a camera they feel is better and offers distinct advantages.

Sure, it would be nice if BMW sold their M5 series automobile for the same price as a Toyota Avalon, but the M5 is a nicer car and so they charge more for it. Yes, both can get you from point A to point Z, but not in the same level of class or comfort. There are many rich guys who can afford a BMW but don't get one, but there are plenty who can and who do.

I simply do not think it is unreasonable for Nikon to offer a camera that eclipses the 1DsMkIII in some critical areas, and matches it in its own forte, and to charge 120% of the price for the added margin of benefit. It would be unreasonable of the Sony A900 to be at that price, and not really equal the others in value, and so what makes the Sony such a bargain is to match these cameras in "some" ways, and to be so cheap.

But as with autos, when you match the best there is in ALL ways, and eclipse the comp in several unique ways, you are simply going to charge more for your product. That is just the way the world turns ...
Er, I was simply making a play on words! Apples. oranges, lemons....
I certainly wasn't saying anything about Nikons being Lemons. Duh!
People should read more carefully before posting.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

JohnKoerner

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2008, 09:23:08 pm »

Quote from: jjj
Er, I was simply making a play on words! Apples. oranges, lemons....
I certainly wasn't saying anything about Nikons being Lemons. Duh!
People should read more carefully before posting.


That was rather rude, and gosh, if I recall the conversation correctly, I was the one who originally made the play on words  

You were the one who originally compared Apple to Nikon, and then you just went off on another tangent and used the word "lemon" when comparing it to the Iphone.

I am not sure if "I" need to read more carefully, or perhaps you need to stop making one inane brand comparison after another, first to Apple then to the Iphone. I believe that was my whole point is that yours is an invalid comparison ... speaking of duh!  

The subject is Nikon, and it has nothing to do with these other makers: Apples, Iphones, or lemons.

Can you stick to a given subject, or is your ADD that bad?

Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2008, 10:07:42 pm »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
That was rather rude, and gosh, if I recall the conversation correctly, I was the one who originally made the play on words
And my reply was in reference to that. So even more ridiculous that you took a further play on those words as a dig at iPhones.
Why not simply be adult enough to admit you simply misread my post rather than come out with more nonsense and insults.

Quote
You were the one who originally compared Apple to Nikon,
Yes and it was still in context of thread  discussion. Again try reading more carefully.

Quote
and then you just went off on another tangent and used the word "lemon" when comparing it to the Iphone.
No I didn't you illiterate, I was actually referencing Orange's poor service with the lemon comment. BTW Orange are a mobile phone provider, as this may also have escaped your attention. And as an aside the iPhone is on my shortlist for my next phone.


Quote
I am not sure if "I" need to read more carefully, or perhaps you need to stop making one inane brand comparison after another, first to Apple then to the Iphone. I believe that was my whole point is that yours is an invalid comparison ... speaking of duh!
Yes you really do need to read more carefully, to save repeating myself, see my points above.

Quote
The subject is Nikon, and it has nothing to do with these other makers: Apples, Iphones, or lemons.
So what do lemons make then? Other than a sourpuss out of you? WARNING! - PUN ALERT!!!! WARNING!!!


Quote
Can you stick to a given subject, or is your ADD that bad?
And you call me rude!? Obviously you are a hypocrite as well as an illiterate and ADD is certainly not a problem I have ever had. However, you seem to have trouble reading or realising a very obvious joke, grief I even added a smiley to underline the fact that it was a humourous comment and still you misread it.
Why not simply admit you made a mistake and move on or are you too stubborn to do that? You gain respect admitting to errors and quickly lose it when denying them.
I get really, really fed up with people not taking the time or effort to read posts more carefully or in context of thread, before replying in a hurry. It's not that hard to to do and saves a lot of unnecesarry aggro if a bit more care is taken.


And your argument as to why Nikon want to charge more is actually perfectly valid and is the same argument people will use when justifying Apple's cost  when compared to other makes. So it is another reason why I think the companies are similar.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 10:13:16 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
    • Øyet
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2008, 05:16:24 am »



(Randall Munroe, http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png - Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 05:17:38 am by jani »
Logged
Jan

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2008, 01:47:01 pm »

Beautiful.

Rob C

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2008, 03:09:47 pm »

I should show that to my girlfriend.
Sleep is overated anyway.

A bit pot/kettle/black though!  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:11:26 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
    • Øyet
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2008, 03:53:02 pm »

Quote from: jjj
A bit pot/kettle/black though!  
Well, someone has to show a sense of self-irony.
Logged
Jan

lovell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
    • http://
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2008, 03:01:24 pm »

Quote from: NikosR
I wonder how many of you guys have a sense of corporate business and pricing. Cost of production is usually a minor factor when we're talking about Pro and niche products.  Could anybody tell me what the official price of the 1DsMkIII is? Ah! I thought so.. Who's going to buy the D3X? The same kind of people who are buying the 1DsMkIII.

No manufacturer is going to price their product at introduction too aggressively against their immediate competition unless they are ready to engage in a price war which they think they could win and re-define a market. And Nikon has showed up till now that they do not want to engage in a price war with Canon.

Everybody is mentioning the 5DII and the A900 as if those were the D3X's competitors. Well, I'm sorry, but they aren't. Not in Nikon's mind, and it shouldn't be in your minds either since the only thing that we currently  know  they have in common is sensor resolution.

I guess what everybody wants to say is that a D700x is sorely missing from the Nikon line-up. To this I have to agree. I would expect Nikon not to wait too long before introducing the D700x. But to expect of Nikon to engage in a catastrophic (for them) price war with Canon at this stage is absurd business wise.

The 1DsMkIII's price has slipped and will slip more now that there's competition around, and I'm sure that Nikon have built enough margin in the D3x's official price to follow suit (and to compete in those special bids we all know take place in the pro market..). But this is a wholly different matter than engaging in a full scale price war on introduction, and that's what would have happened if Nikon had priced the D3x at $5000-$6000 as people seem to propose. Who would have won? Nobody, of course (but the consumer) with Canon emerging in a much better state than Nikon due to their size and the fact that they should have amortized much of the development cost by now.

The $7K-$8K price range at introduction still makes sense for cameras that claim to challenge MF backs in what they deliver to the pro. Target audience: A couple of Pro niches (+ the dentists) as it has always been with the 1Ds series.

So wishful thinking is one thing, realistic thinking is another... Who's on crack now?

From purely an Image Quality point of view, the 5D Mark II is in fact a competitor against the D3x.  Paying more then double for the D3X is not going to get you better IQ, and probably lessor.  I strongly suspect, and based on anecdotal evident to date, that the 5D Mark II is the DSLR that offers the best IQ of any fullframe, of any make...it even better's Canon's own 1DS Mark III, and Canon has publically admited this.

Given the advent of the 5D Mark II, both the 1DS Mark III and the D3X are stupidly over priced!  Only a Canon or Niko fanboy would defend the too high cost of their best pro models...sure it should be priced above the 5D Mark II and D700, but not massively as is the case today.

And why mention the new Sony fullframe A900?  It is the worse performing fullframe to date.  The noisiest, and the least capable, and not worth mentioning.  The only fullframes worth a look are those made by Canon and Nikon.  In the future, perhaps Sony will bring better IQ to the table, but not now.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:10:58 pm by lovell »
Logged
After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

Slough

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2008, 05:08:41 pm »

Quote from: lovell
From purely an Image Quality point of view, the 5D Mark II is in fact a competitor against the D3x.  Paying more then double for the D3X is not going to get you better IQ, and probably lessor.  I strongly suspect, and based on anecdotal evident to date, that the 5D Mark II is the DSLR that offers the best IQ of any fullframe, of any make...it even better's Canon's own 1DS Mark III, and Canon has publically admited this.

I suspect you have no evidence of the above claims. And to say that the D3x will not give better IQ, well if you need the higher performance AF, then you will get pictures with the D3x and not with the 5D2.

Quote from: lovell
Given the advent of the 5D Mark II, both the 1DS Mark III and the D3X are stupidly over priced!  Only a Canon or Niko fanboy would defend the too high cost of their best pro models...sure it should be priced above the 5D Mark II and D700, but not massively as is the case today.

You make that statement from the point of view of someone who would buy the 5D2. There is a good reason why the D3x costs more than the D700, and why the 1Ds3 costs more than the 5D2. They are different products. If you need the extra - such as rugged build - then you pay the money. If not, you don't. Price is often unrelated to build cost, but to what the market will pay.

I think what you really mean is that for an awful lot of people the D700 or 5D2 fit the bill, and there is not point in paying for a 3Dx. But you are not the sole type of customer.

Quote from: lovell
And why mention the new Sony fullframe A900?  It is the worse performing fullframe to date.  The noisiest, and the least capable, and not worth mentioning.  The only fullframes worth a look are those made by Canon and Nikon.  In the future, perhaps Sony will bring better IQ to the table, but not now.

It is funny how someone can make such absurd statements. In capable hands it could produce first rate images. I prefer to read the impressions of those who have used the camera.
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2008, 05:51:39 pm »

Lovell,

Opinions are fine, but please don't spout drivel here as if it were fact.

You obviously have never shot with or seen files from an A900 or you wouldn't be so arrogant with your comments.

Save it for DPReview.

Michael

Logged

Josh-H

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2079
    • Wild Nature Photo Travel
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2008, 06:06:21 pm »

Quote
it even better's Canon's own 1DS Mark III, and Canon has publically admited this.

Suggest you pop over to DX review and check this out for yourself - the results might surprise you.
Logged
Wild Nature Photo Travel

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2008, 06:34:59 pm »

Quote from: lovell
And why mention the new Sony fullframe A900?  It is the worse performing fullframe to date.  The noisiest, and the least capable, and not worth mentioning.  The only fullframes worth a look are those made by Canon and Nikon.  In the future, perhaps Sony will bring better IQ to the table, but not now.
 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:08:19 pm by ziocan »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 9   Go Up