Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Nikon on Crack  (Read 47053 times)

John Camp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2171
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2008, 09:36:26 pm »

One thing that becomes clear after reading all these comments is that Bernard really, really hungers for this camera. I think we should start a pool on when he caves in and buys it. I'd say it's about six weeks away... 8-p

JC
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2008, 11:13:04 pm »

Quote from: John Camp
One thing that becomes clear after reading all these comments is that Bernard really, really hungers for this camera. I think we should start a pool on when he caves in and buys it. I'd say it's about six weeks away... 8-p

JC
I do not refer to anyone in particular, but I do not really get  all this fuss about the 8k.
Maybe It is 1500$ more than what it should have been.... Few hours of work... 1 day of work.... If it takes more than 2  days of work to make 1500$, you cannot justify an 8 grands camera and should move on. If you make more than  that, don't waste your time, go back to work.
Seriously, why should it have been less than 6500K?
I'm not a Nikonian (though I owned Nikon for 20 year+), but if you are a Nikonian this is for some aspects the best DSLR out there. Why should it cost less than the canon 1ds3?
Again, there are two others valid alternatives at less than 3 grands. Why bother then?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:14:32 pm by ziocan »
Logged

Tony Beach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
    • http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/twelveimages
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2008, 11:24:55 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I do not refer to anyone in particular, but I do not really get  all this fuss about the 8k.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=30281863
Logged

Plekto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 551
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2008, 11:25:34 pm »

The problem is that the competition can be had for about $5K less.

You talk about switching over, but the old Nikon Lenses would sell for at least what the new Minolta/Sony ones would.  So there's really no huge price increase there.  In fact, you might actually make a profit by doing this and selling your old Nikon stuff.  Nikon has just priced themselves too close to DB territory and soon will likely find themselves undercut by a couple of thousand by MF gear.  If a 25MP DB comes out for $5K, there isn't a single person who will buy it for $8K.  Well, other than a few die-hards and the review sites.
Logged

JohnKoerner

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2008, 11:46:11 pm »

Quote from: John Camp
One thing that becomes clear after reading all these comments is that Bernard really, really hungers for this camera. I think we should start a pool on when he caves in and buys it. I'd say it's about six weeks away... 8-p
JC


Truly funny  

I too don't see what the big deal is. For some people an extra $1500 is nothing. Nikon is not targeting every single person drooling over their camera, only those people who can afford the camera and have the need for it.

It seems to me Nikon simply believes they have a better camera than the competition. Their D3x is priced approximately 120% of what the 1DsMkIII is, and their D300 is likewise priced at 140% of what the 50D is. That means there is proportionally less margin over the 1DsMkIII than the 50D. As a matter of fact, the D300 was $1800 1.5 years ago and has only dropped $250 in price during this time. When the 50D came out a few months ago, it was $1400 and in only 3 months has plummeted down to $1100, which means it is Canon who is not as confident in its product as Nikon is.

The fact is, when the D3 came out everyone heralded the fact that it was a superior camera, especially at high ISO, but they wished it could match the 1DsMKIII in resolution. So now Nikon provides this one missing element, and now people are crying over the price. It seems to me all people want to do is make demands, and when their demands are met, they look for something new to cry about

Jack




.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2008, 11:46:35 pm »

Quote from: John Camp
One thing that becomes clear after reading all these comments is that Bernard really, really hungers for this camera. I think we should start a pool on when he caves in and buys it. I'd say it's about six weeks away... 8-p

I need something like the D3x for sure.  Considering the depreciation though, you either buy a camera like the D3x on the first day of its availability, or you don't buy one at all.

As of now, I have other plans on Dec 19th.

Cheers,
Bernard

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2008, 12:29:10 am »

Quote from: Tony Beach
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=30281863
I understand the argument. But it is not really worth arguing and bothering.
You either get one, or just buy an alternative. Or you just hang on with what you have which is probably a very good camera already.

I sold some of my older Nikon lenses for a profit. Not counting that they had already paid for them selves in spades.
There also are some better lenses than Nikon with the alternatives brands, not all of them of course, but some surely are better than the nikon. It may well be that  they will deliver better results on a similar size sensor. Who ever is thinking that Nikon got some magic and their sensor, which is exactly the same size and MP counts of the Sony and slightly more than the Canons, will deliver for sure every time better results, are due for a a small disappointment. The lenses that have the better quality, will very likely outperform the others on the output.
There are some strong chances that from 50mm to 135mm primes, Canon and Sony are equal and some cases better than Nikon's, not mentioning the 70-200mm zooms. If someone is working on that range...

Of course all that matters if you only shoot raw and do not shoot Jpeg like Ken and Adolph.  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 02:26:23 am by ziocan »
Logged

Slough

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2008, 03:38:04 am »

Quote from: Pete Ferling
We can wine all we want about price, but we tend to forget how much the real cost would be over and above the $8000 price tag for switching systems.  If you have more than the difference of the cost invested in lens, it would cost you more since you would have to replace the lens as well.  It would also cost you time in relearning a new system, etc.  Don't think for a minute that Nikon is not aware of that fact.

They seemed quite keen to get user to switch to Nikon to use the D3.

And the cost to switch is not so high. I recently sold lots of Nikon lenses I was not using and I got very good prices (near shop) via FleaBay. Good photos and sellers history help. So that £3000 ($4,500) saved by buying a 5D2/A900 would buy you a range of high quality lenses, and you would get back a lot of money from selling existing Nikon lenses.

I have no desire to switch, but some might. Not many though is my guess.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2008, 04:17:33 am »

Quote from: ziocan
I do not refer to anyone in particular, but I do not really get  all this fuss about the 8k.
Maybe It is 1500$ more than what it should have been.... Few hours of work... 1 day of work.... If it takes more than 2  days of work to make 1500$, you cannot justify an 8 grands camera and should move on. If you make more than  that, don't waste your time, go back to work.

I wonder how many landscape shooters make 200.000 US$ per year.

Cheers,
Bernard

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2008, 05:23:42 am »

Quote from: Walt Calahan
"Duh! Have you even looked at link, before making such a daft comment? "

I still own my Nikon F2. Yes I watch the video through.

I also have personal friends whose families were murdered by Hitler. Tell them about enjoying the parody.

Don't go through life angry slamming a person's opinion as if it is directed to you personally.

As I tell my college students, celebrate life with your camera.

Get over it.
Angry!? Unlike you, I found this video extremely funny.
And did so despite living in a country where an awful lot of people are dead as a result of Hitler,  despite growing up in a city that the Luftwaffe completely flattened during the war, despite knowing people affected by WWII and despite my oldest friend being Jewish. Why - simple, it is a very clever satire regarding the current Nikon debate and I realised it wasn't about Hitler, but Nikon.
I've even seen the film that is used for the parody and very good it is too, despite it being about such an awful human being.

And I'll tell you, if you want to celebrate life you don't even need to use a camera, you just need to learn to see the joy in life that's all around. so  
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2008, 05:38:53 am »

Quote from: JohnKoerner
If you study almost every single product Nikon has, it is priced at between 120% to 140% of what Canon's prices are for the same thing.

Nikon is clearly confident in the ability of its camera.
Or the slavish devotion of their users?  

I always thought Nikon was regarded by it's users as Apple is, with a huge amount of [at times unjustified] loyalty. The fact that you pay a lot more for both indicates their stranglehold over their fans, who will stick by them regardless of price and at times even inferior products. Nikon, thanfully are now making kit to rival their opposition [at a premium price], but sadly Apple seem to be making kit [at a premium price]  which is aimed at iTunes users these days, not graphics professionals.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2008, 06:48:37 am »

Quote from: jjj
sadly Apple seem to be making kit [at a premium price]  which is aimed at iTunes users these days, not graphics professionals.

Don't know, when I bought my Mac Pro last year after years of Wintel, it was significantly cheaper than equivalent workstations from Dell and HP.

Cheers,
Bernard

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2008, 09:34:11 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Don't know, when I bought my Mac Pro last year after years of Wintel, it was significantly cheaper than equivalent workstations from Dell and HP.
And they are not the cheapest and certainly not the best PC kit and Dell are always used by Apple for comparisons, for that very reason.
I could have bought a much better specced Windows box when I bought my MacPro - same price. Not only that, it also came with a good quality large monitor too. Still wondering if that wasn't a very, very expensive mistake. It's not as if the MP hasn't been back to the shop on numerous occasions to sort out various issues. Which is also expensive in time and inconvienience.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 09:34:50 am by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

JohnKoerner

  • Guest
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2008, 11:39:21 am »

Quote from: jjj
Or the slavish devotion of their users?  
I always thought Nikon was regarded by it's users as Apple is, with a huge amount of [at times unjustified] loyalty. The fact that you pay a lot more for both indicates their stranglehold over their fans, who will stick by them regardless of price and at times even inferior products. Nikon, thanfully are now making kit to rival their opposition [at a premium price], but sadly Apple seem to be making kit [at a premium price]  which is aimed at iTunes users these days, not graphics professionals.


Well, it seems like we're comparing Apples to Nikons

Nikon apparently feels that its prices are justified, and feels that its camera is better.




.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2008, 12:00:15 pm »

I'd be shocked to see the MF guys actually undercut Nikon (my criterion for whether I buy the D3x I have in preorder (without money down) is simply "does the image quality match 31 mp MF at 24x36 inches?"). If it does, I'll go for a D3x instead of moving to MF - right now, it's too early to tell, but it looks good. Not counting used gear, the entry price for MF is still hovering at about twice the price of a D3x, and that's after a round of 40% price cuts this summer. Can the MF makers cut prices like that twice in a year and survive? I'd imagine not. I'm also not sure if they can survive if Nikon (and I'm sure Canon is working on a camera with the same image quality - everything I've seen says they don't have one yet, but they will in six months or a year) grab the bottom end of their market. MF could be left without a really viable product below the 50 MP backs, which sell for $30,000. If they cut the price of 50 mp to $15,000 - $20,000, they'd have something, but they'd lose most of their margin. The older sensors they sell in the $15,000 market right now would simply not offer enough advantages over a $8000 DSLR to be viable, and their production costs per unit are probably too high to sell them for $8000. The second wall the MF guys are running into is "how do you view the images". A point will come where printers and wall space in galleries are the driving concern - a 24x32 or 24x36 print is already very large, and a 44x60 or 44x66 print is huge - how many markets are there for 44 inch prints of the highest quality? If you can make a 24 inch print from a $8000 camera that is as good as one from a $15,000 camera and hard to tell from one from a $30,000 camera, that squeezes the more expensive cameras into the very small niche of the largest prints.
     Of course, the same thing is happening TO the $8000 cameras - there are $3000 cameras that are almost as good. Even if one of the $3000 cameras can be noisy, and the other one has black spots, their existence demonstrates that it's getting close to the time when a $3000 camera can equal low-end MF - maybe a year or two... The Alpha ISN'T there yet, from looking at prints, but it's very, very good for its price. How long can it be until someone builds a $3000 camera that equals the performance of 31 mp MF (and of the D3x)? That will reset the top price in the DSLR market to $5000 - $6000 - there will always be a "body premium" for ruggedness, the best AF and secondary things like long battery life. I'm convinced the D3x will be $6500 next year and $5500 in 18 months (but I have a $2000 tax advantage to buy a camera by Dec. 31 that I won't have next year , so I'm willing to pay the $8000 because $2000 of it is not my money).

if the high end of the DSLR market in a year looks like:
 
$3000 buys nearly but not quite state of the art IQ in a cheap consumer body (5DII, Alpha 900)
$4000 - $4500 buys state of the art IQ in a good compact body with good AF ("D700x", "EOS 3D" - the long-rumored pro compact Canon)
$5500 - $6500 buys state of the art IQ in a big pro body (D3x after a price drop, EOS 1Ds mk IV)
And "state of the art IQ" makes 24 inch prints of the most difficult, detailed subjects without blinking

What are the MF makers to do? They have a $15,000 product that competes with products in the $4000-$6500 range, and a $25,000 product that has unique image quality, but it takes a 44 inch print to see it. Their best bet is to drop the 25-33 MP lines entirely (unless they can sell them under $8000 and say "we know the image quality is effectively the same as the best DSLRs, but we like our lenses, our DOF and our expandability"). They need to sell the 50 mp systems for $15,000 ($25,000 for 60+ MP full frame 645), and hope there's enough volume there to survive. Fortunately for them, the laws of physics protect the 50 mp+ market to a large extent - at some point between 25 and 40 MP, cramming more pixels on a 24x36 mm sensor becomes counterproductive to image quality - MF can keep going up to 80+ MP.  They'd also better hope and pray that 44-inch printers sell well (perhaps even team up with Epson or HP (Canon wouldn't do it because of their DSLR business) to offer a "we'll give you the printer" promotion at some point).

                                                                 -Dan
Logged

MatthewCromer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 505
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2008, 05:22:33 pm »

Quote from: Dan Wells
The Alpha ISN'T there yet, from looking at prints, but it's very, very good for its price.

Sheesh.

It's the same d*** sensor as the Nikon D3x.

Use a decent RAW convertor and the IQ is identical.
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2008, 06:58:32 pm »

Quote from: MatthewCromer
Sheesh.

It's the same d*** sensor as the Nikon D3x.

Use a decent RAW convertor and the IQ is identical.
Exactly.
I don get why some  people take for granted that the d3x will be better.
From the sample I have saw, at 1600iso and up, the nikon would defenitevely be better, but maybe only until next Sony firmware. As we saw with the A700/D300.
But at 100/200 iso, the lense will make the difference. And, i repeat myself: with a 50mm, 85mm, 135mm, the Nikon cannot be better. Simply it can't.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 07:01:23 pm by ziocan »
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2008, 10:48:29 pm »

The D3x sensor is NOT exactly the Alpha 900 sensor - it's clearly a relative, but there is some pretty significant Nikon tweaking to it - many samples have popped up that show this. Low ISO samples from the D3x are noiseless - I've never seen a noiseless Alpha sample (and yes, I've looked at samples processed with alternative RAW converters). The D3x also has smoother tonal transitions and (perhaps) slightly more detail. Nikon did SOMETHING to the sensor that made a significant difference. The Alpha is one heck of a nice camera (the noise I've seen at low ISO is not especially bothersome), but the D3x has unique image quality for a 35mm-size camera.

                                               -Dan

Logged

Tony Beach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
    • http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/twelveimages
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2008, 11:33:48 pm »

Quote from: MatthewCromer
Sheesh.

It's the same d*** sensor as the Nikon D3x.
It is not the same sensor.  The CFA and ADC are different.

Quote
Use a decent RAW convertor and the IQ is identical.
Can you prove that?  I bet you are wrong.

Quote from: ziocan
Exactly.
I don get why some  people take for granted that the d3x will be better.
From the sample I have saw, at 1600iso and up, the nikon would defenitevely be better, but maybe only until next Sony firmware. As we saw with the A700/D300.
But at 100/200 iso, the lense will make the difference. And, i repeat myself: with a 50mm, 85mm, 135mm, the Nikon cannot be better. Simply it can't.
Iliah Borg has handled files from both cameras, and he is convinced that the D3x is better, even at base ISO.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 11:49:03 pm by Tony Beach »
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Nikon on Crack
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2008, 02:48:31 am »

 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:32:55 am by ziocan »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9   Go Up