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Author Topic: Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs  (Read 88567 times)

Nick-T

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Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2008, 03:20:50 am »

Quote from: thsinar
... Which means, Nick?

Could you emphasize your thoughts?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Sorry Thierry if I was being opaque.

I thinks it's great that Sinar have dropped prices and wish them every success, competition is very healthy.

I wanted to reference Michael's comments re the Hasselblad price cuts which I thought were un-called for and inaccurate, and show how easily they could be applied to any manufacturer.
Good to meet you at 'kina BTW.

Nick-T
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avelpavel

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2008, 03:29:31 am »

Dear Thierry,

You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.

I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 off is a big disappointing load.

And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200 is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800? No way!

Best regards


Roberto



Quote from: thsinar
Roberto,

we have discussed this together via mail and yourself with our Italian distributor already: the story is a little different, if I remember correctly. You have bought a Sinarback eMotion 22 (older model) which you then upgraded to a brand new eMotion 54 LV, and you actually told me that you paid Euro 11'500.-, not 14'500.-.

It is normal, in the life cycle of any product of this kind, to have price reductions.

Best regards,
Thierry
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PatrikR

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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2008, 04:19:21 am »

Quote from: avelpavel
Dear Thierry,

You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.

I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 off is a big disappointing load.

And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200 is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800? No way!

Best regards


Roberto
I paid little less than 30.000 eur for my P45+ (value added, H-mount) 18 months ago and now it's worth about half if even that... Most of this depreciation has happened after Hasselblad's announcement to drop their prices just a few weeks ago. So blame Hasselblad for making their cameras affordable. I'm thinking about switching to H3D or maybe I should be happy with what I got - it still is good...
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jing q

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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2008, 04:21:24 am »

Quote from: avelpavel
Dear Thierry,

You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.

I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 off is a big disappointing load.

And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200 is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800? No way!

Best regards


Roberto

I think all of us got burnt to some degree by the price drops...but this is a good sign for the future if you ask me.
On the bright side hopefully the upgrades will be cheaper now.
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dustblue

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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2008, 06:17:59 am »

I agree. efficiencies are very important. Four MFDB companys's cost is 4 times R&D investments. And who gonna pay for that?

We photographers.


Quote from: TMARK
I was about to post, but you beat me to it.

I find the complaining about lowering prices the most INSANE thing I've ever heard.  I swear half the people on this forum work for a back maker in some form of klutsy faux "word of mouth" marketing.  Really. If a company can't sell a product to their customers because the price is too high, due in large part to inefficiencies in their operations, well, iron out your inefficiencies and lower the price to what the market will accept, or become a really high end product and give up the volume.  Or better yet, one maker, maybe two, should merge or go under.

Yeah, if I bought 60 days ago and now the price drops, I'd be pissed.  But that is the hazard with electronics purchases.

Now, lets get us some US prices instead of my back of the envelope Euro/Dollar conversion.

thsinar

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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2008, 07:02:43 am »

T,

- try the new Sinar eXposure 6.1 which is due within a few weeks: it should change your mind.

- the Sinarback 54 M (and MC) is sold out. We have from time to time refurbished units. For this, please consult our distributor.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: TMARK
As to the back, if the prices are in line with the Euro prices, I'm in.  I've always liked the Dalsa chip, 22 mpx is MORE than enough for magazine and ad work, the 54s is fast, has internal memory, uses adapter plates . . . true, the software is off putting, but if worse comes to worse I can make into dng and open in LR 2.0.  

Thierry, is Sinar still offering the 54m?

T
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thsinar

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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2008, 07:06:38 am »

hi Nick,

That's what I understood from your post, which means that it is as much "un-called" for Sinar as it was for Hasselblad. You would have noticed that I did not write or make any comment about Hasselblad's price policy/new prices, whatever the reasons for these are. That's why I was a bit surprised to get this comment "thrown" in. No harm however.

Yes, was good to meet at Photokina, even though we did not have enough time to chat more. Hopefully next time.

All the best,
Thierry

Quote from: Nick-T
Sorry Thierry if I was being opaque.

I thinks it's great that Sinar have dropped prices and wish them every success, competition is very healthy.

I wanted to reference Michael's comments re the Hasselblad price cuts which I thought were un-called for and inaccurate, and show how easily they could be applied to any manufacturer.
Good to meet you at 'kina BTW.

Nick-T
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:09:28 am by thsinar »
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eronald

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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2008, 07:24:03 am »

Quote from: thsinar
hi Nick,

Yes, was good to meet at Photokina, even though we did not have enough time to chat more. Hopefully next time.

All the best,
Thierry


Thierry, I remember you made an offer to buy anyone from the forum a drink in Patpong, as alcohol was no go at PK ...

Edmund
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thsinar

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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2008, 08:52:34 am »

Edmund, the day you'll see me in Patpong it will snow in Thailand (I should say Bangkok): there is MUCH better than this ....

Thierry

Quote from: eronald
Thierry, I remember you made an offer to buy anyone from the forum a drink in Patpong, as alcohol was no go at PK ...

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 08:57:19 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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gregkingsbi

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« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2008, 12:28:53 pm »

Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond.  We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles.  On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing.    I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user.  The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging

 
Quote from: thsinar
Thanks Chris,

SBI has been sent the new prices last wednesday: I believe those posted by you do not yet reflect these price reductions.

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2008, 01:30:19 pm »

Quote from: gregkingsbi
Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond.  We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles.  On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing.    I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user.  The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging

So you're saying the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx) now priced at Euro 6'037, is US priced at $14,156.00 per Chris' post earlier?  The current conversion rate is ~1.3414, so 6037 Euros x 1.3414 = $8,098.  That implies a $6,000 US mark-up.  Surely that can't be right...?...
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Sean Reginald Knight

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« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2008, 01:36:11 pm »

Quote from: gregkingsbi
Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond.  We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles.  On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing.    I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user.  The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging

I am sorry, Greg, but I am a wee bit flummoxed. The emotion 54LV at USD14 156.00 reflects the promotional pricing? I can't make EUR6000.00 come out as USD14 156.00, no matter how hard I try. According to the closing spot forex rate posted on Friday at trading close, EUR6000.00 = USD8077.76. OK, it is the spot rate albeit. Still, that comes up to a 75% mark up over the European price.

I must have misunderstood you so please do elucidate.

P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.

Curiouser and Curiouser.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:32:24 pm by Sean Reginald Knight »
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gregkingsbi

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« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2008, 04:36:23 pm »

Dear All,
It appears there is an error in our Marketing Bulletin.  I will check into it on Monday.  Sorry for any confusion.  I will post the correct pricing at that time.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging

Quote from: John_Black
So you're saying the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx) now priced at Euro 6'037, is US priced at $14,156.00 per Chris' post earlier?  The current conversion rate is ~1.3414, so 6037 Euros x 1.3414 = $8,098.  That implies a $6,000 US mark-up.  Surely that can't be right...?...
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TMARK

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« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2008, 04:49:44 pm »

Quote from: Sean Reginald Knight
I am sorry, Greg, but I am a wee bit flummoxed. The emotion 54LV at USD14 156.00 reflects the promotional pricing? I can't make EUR6000.00 come out as USD14 156.00, no matter how hard I try. According to the closing spot forex rate posted on Friday at trading close, EUR6000.00 = USD8077.76. OK, it is the spot rate albeit. Still, that comes up to a 75% mark up over the European price.

I must have misunderstood you so please do elucidate.

P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.

Curiouser and Curiouser.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.

I just don't understand.  I'm so confused.  

Greg King, yeah, I'm talking to you! Please state with precision and conviction the US cost, to me, of a 54lv back.  I'm in NYC.  Is that the list price?  And if so, will I have to shake a real price out of a dealer, Shug Knight style?

If the US price is 14k w/o a plate, no one in the US will buy.  Not with Leaf 54s backs in almost new condition sloshing around NY and LA Craigslist and Ebay for $9k, and not with Blad pricing being what it is.  Not to mention the 5d2 at $2700, used P25's at $6k, etc.

In the coming MFDB maker shakeout, a company that can't get its act together will not survive as a back maker anyway. Sinar does not have its act together, in the US market.  That is the impression.

Edited:  Just saw Greg's post.  Let us know when the correct info is available.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 04:50:44 pm by TMARK »
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thsinar

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« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2008, 08:47:51 pm »

No, I didn't Sean! Too bad for you since you dreamed about!

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Sean Reginald Knight
P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.

Curiouser and Curiouser.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.
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Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2008, 01:51:27 am »

Quote from: thsinar
No, I didn't Sean! Too bad for you since you dreamed about!

Best regards,
Thierry


Does Sinar want to sell cameras or talk about selling cameras?

Maybe I'm missing it but I've read this thread 3 times and I still don't know what Sinars sell for in the U.S. at least the complete range.

Can Sinars be bought in the U.S. like overnight?  Where are they serviced, what is the service policy, typical turnaround time.

Will the HY6 and Sinar backs ever be in rental in the major cities?

I still don't understand medium format.  I've talked to dealers and reps and engineers and marketing cats and all of them say medium format is different, it requires a specialized dealer to sell them, they don't sell themselves, they require lots of supervision and a steep learning curve, a real camera store can't sell them, only a value added dealer knows how, etc. etc. etc.

OK then how about making them easier to use, tether, process,  learn. How bout' making them available, the prices understandable and easy to buy.

All of medium format is cryptic at best, but Sinar wins for an information stream that makes the Bush White House look transparent.  Well, I take that back, Phase also seems to be experts at infuriating their customers which in a very bizarre way tells you something positive about Phase in the fact they seem to outsell everyone else.  Go figure?

If these small straw polls that keep getting posted on this forum are even close to correct, the only digital backs that Sinar outsells is Mamiya's ZD and megavision.  You would think they would want to change that.

It's not just Sinar, I'd swear medium format prides itself on it's complexity and confusion.

No wonder digital techs love medium format.  They're the only ones that have a vested interest in taking the time to understand it.

It kind of makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't rule the medium format world?  Maybe now that they are hitting the forums hard and have dropped their prices they will.

Big Cooter
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thsinar

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« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2008, 07:02:14 am »

bcooter,

I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time (together with other MF players), especially if it is to repeat x-times the same again and again. I guess I have got your message since a little while now.
No world is perfect, but "we" are working on it to make it better. So it is with the MF AND with SLR markets.

I have informed about new Sinar prices (see above). These prices have been communicated last mid of the week to our distributors: if those are not yet out and known in the USA by the dealers, it is by no means a crime, and certainly doesn't deserve your outcry. Let these persons, most of them dedicated and knowledgeable ones, a bit of time to get it right.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
Does Sinar want to sell cameras or talk about selling cameras?

Maybe I'm missing it but I've read this thread 3 times and I still don't know what Sinars sell for in the U.S. at least the complete range.

Can Sinars be bought in the U.S. like overnight?  Where are they serviced, what is the service policy, typical turnaround time.

Will the HY6 and Sinar backs ever be in rental in the major cities?

I still don't understand medium format.  I've talked to dealers and reps and engineers and marketing cats and all of them say medium format is different, it requires a specialized dealer to sell them, they don't sell themselves, they require lots of supervision and a steep learning curve, a real camera store can't sell them, only a value added dealer knows how, etc. etc. etc.

OK then how about making them easier to use, tether, process,  learn. How bout' making them available, the prices understandable and easy to buy.

All of medium format is cryptic at best, but Sinar wins for an information stream that makes the Bush White House look transparent.  Well, I take that back, Phase also seems to be experts at infuriating their customers which in a very bizarre way tells you something positive about Phase in the fact they seem to outsell everyone else.  Go figure?

If these small straw polls that keep getting posted on this forum are even close to correct, the only digital backs that Sinar outsells is Mamiya's ZD and megavision.  You would think they would want to change that.

It's not just Sinar, I'd swear medium format prides itself on it's complexity and confusion.

No wonder digital techs love medium format.  They're the only ones that have a vested interest in taking the time to understand it.

It kind of makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't rule the medium format world?  Maybe now that they are hitting the forums hard and have dropped their prices they will.

Big Cooter
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 08:28:50 am by thsinar »
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Gigi

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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2008, 08:37:20 am »

Quote from: thsinar
bcooter,

I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time (together with other MF players), especially if it is to repeat x-times the same again and again. I guess I have got your message since a little while now.
No world is perfect, but "we" are working on it to make it better. So it is with the MF AND with SLR markets.

I have informed about new Sinar prices (see above). These prices have been communicated last mid of the week to our distributors: if those are now not yet out and known by the dealers, it is not a crime, and certainly doesn't deserve your outcry. Let this persons, most of them dedicated and knowledgeable ones, a bit of time to get it right.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry

Thierry -

I don't blame you for your frustration with such posts. You are a beacon of a light in this otherwise dimmed room. First, let us applaud your efforts and patience, and hope that such grumping does not deter you from helping us all out.

It is wonderful to hear such news from Sinar that you have posted. Its really interesting, and there are a number of us (I suspect) lurking in the wings getting ready to move from offstage to participating in MFDB.

The frustration you hear is that of a recognition of a good product, Europe based, that somehow seems to have trouble getting into the US. The frustration is twofold: first, that of the user who is a bit stymied (I live in Chicago, and its still none too easy to participate in the Hy6 phenomenon), and second, that of interested and respectful people, who admire the product and wish that the barriers between good product and end user would somehow .... dissipate.

I've enjoyed many obscure products from Europe and overseas over the years, and am used to the rather awkward mesh of American marketplace and European models of manufacturing and distribution. I don't know how many of my peers have had that experience directly - but it is a bit of a challenge. And with the more exotic (= smaller production numbers, higher complexity) products, the more challenged is the rational distribution model, which to be sure, is not quite in place.

For other examples, look at all the European producers of fine cars that have not been able to penetrate the US market. Its hard for these manufacturers to grasp the scale of the US, and the high level of expectations of support and availability that the US market tends to demand.

For those who want the Canikon experience, one must recommend they either stay with that realm, or go to Hassy. For Hassy has that level of broad base exposure and also expertise in their marketing. For those who are looking for exemplary products of singular distinction, for a particular engineering approach that might be different (and I'd argue the Hy6 is just that) , well, accept that the marketing is a second priority. For some small manufacturers, its reasonable that the expertise is in the product,and patience is needed in the distribution.

Keep this in mind, please: if Sinar and other small manufacturers were as clear on the marketing and distribution side as we'd like, they might not make the products they make. They make from a belief, and then sell from that perspective. It can be frustrating at times, and even a bit awkward to see the misteps, but they believe in what they do. Sure, we'd all like a better a distribution channel, and more exposure, and more centralized communication, and less glitches in pricing exercises, but thankfully at least the product is out there.

So again, Theirry, thanks for your patience, and apologies for the long discourse.

Geoff
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« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2008, 09:39:47 am »

Thank you Geoff, I understand your view and appreciate your words.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS: there is no way stopping me from providing help here, no matter how many "frustrating" posts. I simply wish to keep my freedom to express my "frustration" when I have the feeling that it's too much.

Quote from: Geoffreyg
Thierry -

I don't blame you for your frustration with such posts. You are a beacon of a light in this otherwise dimmed room. First, let us applaud your efforts and patience, and hope that such grumping does not deter you from helping us all out.

It is wonderful to hear such news from Sinar that you have posted. Its really interesting, and there are a number of us (I suspect) lurking in the wings getting ready to move from offstage to participating in MFDB.

The frustration you hear is that of a recognition of a good product, Europe based, that somehow seems to have trouble getting into the US. The frustration is twofold: first, that of the user who is a bit stymied (I live in Chicago, and its still none too easy to participate in the Hy6 phenomenon), and second, that of interested and respectful people, who admire the product and wish that the barriers between good product and end user would somehow .... dissipate.

I've enjoyed many obscure products from Europe and overseas over the years, and am used to the rather awkward mesh of American marketplace and European models of manufacturing and distribution. I don't know how many of my peers have had that experience directly - but it is a bit of a challenge. And with the more exotic (= smaller production numbers, higher complexity) products, the more challenged is the rational distribution model, which to be sure, is not quite in place.

For other examples, look at all the European producers of fine cars that have not been able to penetrate the US market. Its hard for these manufacturers to grasp the scale of the US, and the high level of expectations of support and availability that the US market tends to demand.

For those who want the Canikon experience, one must recommend they either stay with that realm, or go to Hassy. For Hassy has that level of broad base exposure and also expertise in their marketing. For those who are looking for exemplary products of singular distinction, for a particular engineering approach that might be different (and I'd argue the Hy6 is just that) , well, accept that the marketing is a second priority. For some small manufacturers, its reasonable that the expertise is in the product,and patience is needed in the distribution.

Keep this in mind, please: if Sinar and other small manufacturers were as clear on the marketing and distribution side as we'd like, they might not make the products they make. They make from a belief, and then sell from that perspective. It can be frustrating at times, and even a bit awkward to see the misteps, but they believe in what they do. Sure, we'd all like a better a distribution channel, and more exposure, and more centralized communication, and less glitches in pricing exercises, but thankfully at least the product is out there.

So again, Theirry, thanks for your patience, and apologies for the long discourse.

Geoff
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lisa_r

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Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2008, 11:44:57 am »

Thierry, I agree. It does not matter what you or any other camera manufacturer does: Double the resolution, keep the low noise, and sell it for half the price and the blogs will light up with complaints!

Let's face the facts: it seems like most forums are dominated by people whose favorite pass time is to praise (Red) or damn (60mp backs) stuff which the writer has never even used. It's insane. The same goes for Canon: they make the new 5D2 with double the pixels, less noise, better D.R., 1080p video, and tens of thousands of complaints come streaming onto the web. That's before anyone has actually used the camera!

I think it's gracious of you to come on here - like Ben Stiller, you always play the punching bag. Even when the products are getting better, more flexible, and finally cheaper.

As was said earlier in another thread: I don't see any of MY heroes  on forums incessantly complaining about gear. They seem to just buy what tools they need, use them to make some kick ass images, and get paid. End of story. (Maybe in a couple years they buy another camera. Maybe not.) Anyway it's nice to know that many of the most productive photographers are out there getting the job done and loving their digital cameras, knowing nothing about this culture of complaint.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

P.S. I'd like to find a forum where people are helping one another get the most out of their cameras, RAW software, Photoshop. If anyone knows where that is, please let me know.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 11:57:09 am by lisa_r »
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